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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New Zealand: Bill on transgender birth certificates creates big issues

194 replies

TimeLady · 21/11/2018 19:35

Sounds familiar....

www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/108740984/Bill-on-transgender-birth-certificates-creates-big-issues

OP posts:
Materialist · 22/11/2018 08:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PurpleOva · 22/11/2018 08:07

This is my main bug bear of this argument. If it isn't reproductive sex that separates us into male and female (therefore men and women as that is what we call male and female humans), then what is it?

I know we are all humans and all have more in common than the differences.

But, why would we have a subgroup called "women" that don't share reproductive sex? What is that group based on?

If science comes up with a link, I might be happy to change my view.... but I still think we would need subgrouping and appropriate segregation based on reproductive sex for humans as we have for all animal species.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 22/11/2018 08:12

I find it incredibly sad that purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman.

Does having your meat and 2 veg make you ‘any less of a woman’ then? 🙄

IAteMyCrumpetIAteItAllUp · 22/11/2018 08:27

It’s interesting that Boko Haram don’t appear to have any difficulty in deciding who is a woman when they target people for mass kidnappings. And Saudi Arabia is quite able to who falls in the category of woman when deciding who needs a chaperone to leave the house of (until recently) who is able to drive a car. And Britain 100 years ago was able to sufficiently identify women in order to deny women the right to vote.

It’s only when women want to work together to protest their treatment for being women that the category of woman is suddenly terribly difficult to define.

Funny that.

FermatsTheorem · 22/11/2018 08:34

I await hearing about gender identity’s relationship to the humours.

Well, given that we've had references to lady souls in parliament yesterday, and an academic paper which seemingly connects beliefs in transgenderism with readiness to believe in metempsychosis (transmigration of souls), it's surely only a matter of time before the four humours get a look in. Perhaps along with phlogiston and caloric (though in fairness, those made a lot more sense than transmigration, and even epicycles gave an excellent algorithm for doing calculations with).

Annandale · 22/11/2018 08:36

There was no midwife or doctor at my birth. Oddly enough I still have a sex.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 22/11/2018 08:43

Annandale, but how can that be if there was no one there to assign you one?

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 08:52

Because you're only a woman and you need to make way for men and their hurty feelz.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 08:53

Oops. That was in response to an earlier question.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 22/11/2018 08:57

Further to Boko Haram et al - the flip side of the delusion "I have changed sex" is that this poor sod was raped and said repeatedly "but, I am a man" during the assault.

I don't doubt that's what they believed, but, the rapist knew better.

I have total sympathy for this person. What a brutal way of having the truth served up. Very brave to speak up, and I'm glad the scumbag rapist was jailed. Still think "poor sod" though.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-41614755

ShotsFired · 22/11/2018 09:01

Gosh, halfway through this thread and I am really wishing I'd bought my TRA Bingo card with me, because we have a trans poster dead set on ensuring I'd get a full house!

theworldistoosmall · 22/11/2018 09:04

What I don’t understand is the lack of medical changes required.
Surely if I was born as the wrong sex and wanted to changed my gender from female to Male, then I would also want to have a cock and loose my tits.
Yet this doesn’t seem to be the case as everyone wants to retain the parts they were born with. So what part of the wrong body were they born into?
At least the older trans actually went through the physical changes rather than trying to gaslight the rest of us.

Micke · 22/11/2018 09:12

Further to Boko Haram et al - the flip side of the delusion "I have changed sex" is that this poor sod was raped and said repeatedly "but, I am a man" during the assault.

A lot of abuse and hardship could be avoided by everyone if full and earnest believe could actually change reality.

Juells · 22/11/2018 09:27

julj70

I find it incredibly sad that purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman.

I used the words 'big person' because of the MN posting rules.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 22/11/2018 09:34

Gosh, halfway through this thread and I am really wishing I'd bought my TRA Bingo card with me, because we have a trans poster dead set on ensuring I'd get a full house!

Eh?

Justhadathought · 22/11/2018 09:42

julj70

A parrot can mimic the sounds of a fire engine; but that does not make the parrot a fire engine.

A man wearing clothing associated with females does not make him female no matter what he thinks or feels.

Queer theory calls this the 'performance' of gender. A performance is just that: a performance.

This is not to be unkind, but just to face reality. The reality is that women are women because they are women ( they are biologically female); even if they have short hair; wear doc martens and dungarees.

Nobody is objecting to people performing or presenting as they like ( well not here, they aren't), what is being objected to is males trying to force their way into female spaces; and what's more trying to re-arrange basic language and concepts so as to make their identity more valid; but at the expense of the language and concepts that women require to name and describe their experience as women.

Justhadathought · 22/11/2018 09:45

by the way, a 'feminist' is someone who recognises that they are a woman. The way a woman recognises she is a woman is by looking at her body, and by a life time of being treated according to her body. These are not 'purported' feminists, but actual feminists. Women who think their existence as a woman is just down to a feeling in their, or in a man's head, are certainly not feminists.

Bowlofbabelfish · 22/11/2018 09:47

I find it incredibly sad that purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman.

Can you explain what you mean by this? The person is Male are they not?

Bowlofbabelfish · 22/11/2018 09:52

I don't think that human rights are a zero-sum game though - the addition of rights to some humans needn't be to the detriment of others.

Excellent!

So now: what rights do transpeople lack that everyone else has?

Ereshkigal · 22/11/2018 09:57

That idiotic cake meme on the internet has such a lot to answer for (the "human rights are not like cake..." meme). Of course rights can conflict.

It's about as inane and stupid as the clownfish Facebook meme.

StarsAndMoonlight · 22/11/2018 10:22

You make a good point about the original reason for separating by sex.

Is that universal, or a convention of western society?

As other people have already pointed out, some societies abandon/kill their newborn babies based on their sex (girls). They are separated by sex.

Here is an article about 'toilet injustice' in India that explains what happens when people, but women in particular, do not have access to toilets www.nytimes.com/2012/06/15/world/asia/in-mumbai-a-campaign-against-restroom-injustice.html?module=inline

Here is a quote from the article: Like men, women in villages often must urinate outdoors, in fields. But unlike them, they sometimes endure taunting and even sexual assault. Many rural women relieve themselves in small groups, before dawn, to protect against harassment.

People here don't seem to have an issue with separating by sex.

It is such an issue, that a film was made about it www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/world/asia/india-toilet-movie.html

Quotes from the article: “This is a real problem,” said Jagmati Sangwan, a women’s rights advocate. “So many women, especially landless women, face a lot of violence when they go to the bathroom outside.”

To avoid being leered at during the day, some women hold on for hours for darkness to fall. Waiting that long can create health problems, particularly for pregnant women, who are highly susceptible to urinary tract infections, experts say.

The men who are assaulting urinating/defecating/menstruating women are separating out their targets based upon their sex.

Women in cultures/countries that do not have good records of protecting women do not leave their homes unaccompanied. They have chaperones. They do not have freedom or autonomy because they cannot be guaranteed safety from men. So they are separated based upon their sex.

In this country, it used to be customary for women to have chaperones and be accompanied when out and about because of the risk of assault that men posed or because of societal expectations of women based upon their biology. No one queried gender identify. Women and men were treated differently, ergo separated, based upon sex.

We separate by sex to prevent women from being sexually assaulted by men. Or rather, female bodied people from being sexually assaulted by male bodied people. On the occasions I've been sexually assaulted, none of the men stopped to ask my gender identify. They assaulted me because I am a woman and they recognised that. It was my biological sex that mattered.

Some cultures (not Western ones) separate menstruating women from the rest of society so that men don't have to deal with female biology. They are separated by sex.

As someone else said, Boko Harem didn't ask the female children how they identified. They separated the children they abducted from those they didn't by sex.

Are you seeing it yet?

ShotsFired · 22/11/2018 10:24

Me: Gosh, halfway through this thread and I am really wishing I'd bought my TRA Bingo card with me, because we have a trans poster dead set on ensuring I'd get a full house!

DisrespectfulAdultFemalequeried this.

I mean because the poster in question has already bought up:
"purported feminists think that being big, or wearing frilly pink scarves make someone any less of a woman" - TICK
"So you're saying that women (and presumably also men) are defined by their reproductive organs" - TICK
"the addition of rights to some humans needn't be to the detriment of others." - TICK
"what about people with AIS/PAIS?" - TICK
"[what about] intersex" - TICK
"Sex... a cursory glance by a midwife?" - TICK
"[Sex segregation being] a convention of western society" - TICK

I'm waiting to see which next off the checklist of supposed gotchas they bring up before I can claim my full bingo card.

Datun · 22/11/2018 10:31

Julj70

Do you seriously think we haven't heard the intersex argument before?

As soon as transactivists noticed the existence of intersex people and how chromosomes can wander down a biological cul-de-sac, they seized upon them with glee.

The intersex society (UK I think) eventually published a public letter basically tell them to fuck off. Because their attitude to surgery and that of transactivists are diametrically opposed. And no amount of coercion was going to get them to capitulate to a public collaboration.

In terms of an argument to shore up the trans ideology, it's easily refuted. Although tedious.

But what people like you believe it does for the trans argument is monumentally outweighed by your credibility plummeting, because I'm afraid you look like a callous misogynist getting off on some intellectual wanking at the expense of both intersex people and women.

But I guess you're fine with that.

Juells · 22/11/2018 10:33

Following on from StarsAndMoonlight's points - an Indian woman I know drove everywhere, and would panic if her car was out of commission and she might have to wait at a bus stop alone. In her forties, when she went back to Kerala (which is considered to be the most equal society in India) a male relative would have to accompany her if she wanted to go shopping, for her safety.

Oh if only women could identify out of the danger.

KristinaM · 22/11/2018 10:37

Shotsfired - can I offer up “ appeals to be nice”? Eg

Intersectionality

Women as human shields

Suicide

Cis privilege

The most oppressed