Jordan Peterson thinks women who wear makeup and complain about sexual harrassment are hypocrites

[fizzthecat1]

Jordan Peterson has done an interview saying women who wear makeup are inviting sexual harassment as it's "sexually provocative". So basically telling his male audience that they are free to sexually harrass women and they're basically asking for it because of something as innocent as makeup. I just can't with this man. He is so dangerous to society.

www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/06/04/jordan-peterson-fully-in-context-and-incredibly-sexist/

Here's his quote from the interview:

Peterson: Here’s a rule. How about no makeup in the workplace?

Vice: Why should that be a rule?

Peterson: Why should you wear makeup in the workplace? Isn’t that sexually provocative?

Vice: No

Peterson: It’s not?

Vice: No

Peterson: Well what is it then? What’s the purpose of makeup?

Vice: (unclear) like to just put on makeup, just to…

Peterson: Why? Why do you make your lips red? Because they turn red during sexual arousal. That’s why. Why do you put rouge on your cheeks? Same reason. How about high heels? They’re there to exaggerate sexual attractiveness. That’s what high heels do. Now, I’m not saying people shouldn’t use sexual displays in the workplace, I’m not saying that. But I am saying that that is what they’re doing, and that IS what they’re doing.

Vice: Do you feel like a serious woman who doesn’t want sexual harassment in the workplace, do you feel like if she wears makeup in the workplace, is being somewhat hypocritical?

Jordan Peterson: Yeah. I do think that.

they could never grasp that women wear what they like as it makes them feel good or gives them confidenxe or simply because they like what theyre wearing.

Nope. I used to wear make up at work and dress as described because women who do not do these things are deemed unprofessional. I rarely wear make up now and would be delighted if wearing no make up and sensible shoes were considered acceptable for professional women.

Peterson: Why? Why do you make your lips red? Because they turn red during sexual arousal. That’s why. Why do you put rouge on your cheeks? Same reason.
Does he have a thing for circus clowns? Is the workplace he has in mind a Big Top?
What a tool.

This twat was on Question Time last Thursday night

So basically telling his male audience that they are free to sexually harrass women and they're basically asking for it
no, I can't see that. You're projecting. Unless you can give me an example of where he says it. Which I doubt.
I think it's an interesting issue. A related one is why do so many woman wear very high heels now.
and how do you judge the gender of his audience? I'm a woman, and I think his stuff is often interesting.

It's quite straightforward to infer from what he's said that he thinks women are encouraging sexual harassment. He's being unusually clear in this interview. But, as usual, even when Peterson is speaking in perfectly clear, everyday English us critics 'just don't understand him!' or are 'misinterpreting him!'

His argument is that women wearing makeup is sexually provocative - it constitutes an outright sexual display. He then agrees that a woman who doesn't want to be sexually harassed is a hypocrite if she wears makeup. In saying that, he thinks that wearing makeup in the workplace and not wanting to sexually harassed are incompatible, or inconsistent positions. One cannot consistently desire to wear makeup AND at the same time desire to not be sexually harassed without the charge of hypocrisy. This means that Peterson sees an intimate connection between wearing makeup in the workplace and workplace harassment.

Why does he think that harassment and makeup go together? Because, as he's already stated, he regards makeup to be sexually provocative and a sexual display. The clear inference from this is if you do sexual displays at work you are a hypocrite if you become dismayed when men react to these overt sexual displays in a sexual manner. The message is you ought not to be dismayed at sexual harassment because, by putting on a sexual display, what on earth were you expecting to happen? The woman who wears makeup is acting provocatively and so should expect to get some sexual responses in return.

Now, he's not outright telling men that it's ok to harass women who wear makeup, but he is implying that women are encouraging it by putting on a sexual display.

Oh I know what you mean about people hanging off his every word OP and he's just regurgitating other people's theories but distorting them with his own skew. And he's so dogmatic! Dogmatic about the theories he's distorted. Grr

I agree with the poster who says that society won't allow a woman to age or to have blotchy skin or invisible eyelashes. She'd be mocked for letting herself go.

I don't know why people keep on about this man, I cba to Google him but he sounds a bit thick.
I love makeup and wear it most days. I definitely put a lot of store in being attractive to men (and considered attractive by other girls)when I was younger. I felt I had no other power, as, even though I knew I was intelligent boys and men made it very clear they thought I had nothing important to say.
As a "pretty" girl I could command attention from boys and respect from girls.
Later I wore it as war paint-black eyeliner makes me feel more confident, and makes me look less tired!
It's really simplistic to say make up on girls and women is a sexual display.
It can be, but it's also armour, protection, conformity, comfort. All sorts.
Old women wear make up. Is this twerp suggesting that when my Nan puts on her red lippy she is inviting a groping? I think most men would be disgusted at the idea!

I believe he may be the one guilty of hypocrisy here. His whole claim to fame was standing up against government controlled speech (a position I agree with btw). Yet he's advocating a "rule" against makeup in the workplace?

I get he's not explicitly saying there should be a law, but honestly how else could it be achieved? Society and culture is getting more fractured not less, so the mere notion of getting everyone to wake up and agreeing a new cultural norm overnight seems improbable in the extreme.

Why women wear make up is a red herring, of course the reasons can be many and varied, but making general pronouncements and making judgements like this is tilting towards the tyrannical tendencies Peterson says he's against.

I'm usually a fan of his, and the conversation surrounding how to integrate men and women ina professional context is one that needs to occur. My proposed solution is that men and women should be encouraged to socialise aside from sexual/romantic contexts. After all if a man is agonising on how/when to approach a woman could not be anything other than better served than having close female friends on which he can consult if something is creepy, inappropriate or otherwise inadvisable.

If the adage "when a person tells you who they are, believe them the first time" is correct, and I believe it probably is, then what Jordan Peterson is telling us about himself is really quite interesting.

yes. He blames women for being sexually harassed. That is shocking but he will get very little scrutiny for it.

I didn’t know who he was; I’ve just read your link fizzthecat1 - wow, he really is a joyless, woman-hater isn’t he? No wonder the incels love him...

no, I can't see that. You're projecting. Unless you can give me an example of where he says it. Which I doubt

You can't see that?? Are you stupid? I PROVIDED YOU A LINK WHERE HE ANSWERS THAT EXACT QUESTION. Here is the direct quote for you as apparently you can't read.

Vice: Do you feel like a serious woman who doesn’t want sexual harassment in the workplace, do you feel like if she wears makeup in the workplace, is being somewhat hypocritical?

Jordan Peterson: Yeah. I do think that.

and how do you judge the gender of his audience? I'm a woman, and I think his stuff is often interesting

Lol oh dear.

I wear makeup all the damn time (currently sporting sparkly gold eyeshadow and black lipstick.) It has fuck all to do with being attractive to men ('you'd look so much prettier if you didn't wear so much makeup' fuck off!) No, it's because I like it and want to wear it for myself, although my idea of pretty is on the weird side anyway. This dude is missing several tricks, lipstick comes in far more colours than red, same with blusher, men wear makeup too, and women who don't wear makeup get harassed too. The only person who's fault it is is the person doing the harassing.

Perterson has some ideas that are better than others, but I don't think it's true that he is unaware that individual women wear make-up for all kinds of reasons, like social expectations or socialisation. He's very much in the habit of thinking like a Jungian, and the assumptions and natural processes that are operating underneath the things that individuals do.
As far as make-up, I think there are some pretty good questions inherent in what he is saying. Why is it we have tended to expect women to wear make-up, but not men? Why in even business settings are women expected to look young? Why is fashion for women so directed toward sexualization? As individuals maybe we wear make-up, or high heels, or low cut blouses, because that is expected in our jobs. Maybe for some people, like women actors, we are expected to take our clothes off because that is how you get roles, even in high quality productions. But doesn't all thing fundamentally come down to sexualising women in a way that we don't sexualise men?
Obviously many people simply aren't conscious of this stuff, and then plenty of women think by dressing provocatively they are expressing sexual power. But in any of these cases, if we really object to being seen as sexual objects in the workplace or other settings, and the behaviours that come out of that, it might be a good idea to be conscious of the less visible ways society and our socialisation makes us a participant in that objectification. It might not be possible to totally escape from them or even change our own perceptions, but it's something important to think about. It's one thing to complain that the patriarchy puts women in the position where they have to do that, but sometimes I think we don't like to face that actually we can be pretty comfortable with certain parts of that socialisation ourself, and at that point we become kind of complicit, and it does seem a bit like asking men not to notice something that we complain about in other instances.

Ive just realised, i wear make up so the women in work will include me. Talk to me. Know im young at heart..

My mum always insisted I should put on (light) make-up for formal occasions (including job interviews), because just like a rather formal attire and brushed hair and teeth and punctuality, it demostrates respect for the people you have the interview/meeting with.

Make up has widely become just a part of formal attire, even if the roots may have been about sexual attraction (though I kind of doubt that the make up noble guys wore in the 18th century added to their attractiveness, but anyway).

Does anybody believe Theresa May or Angela Merkel wear make up in order to send sublime messages about their sexual attractiveness or availability or something? Please.

You can't see that?? Are you stupid? I PROVIDED YOU A LINK WHERE HE ANSWERS THAT EXACT QUESTION. Here is the direct quote for you as apparently you can't read.
I think you need anger management. How do you get on IRL when you can't discuss things without being offensive?

Does JP think that an appropriate way for men to approach women is by harassing them? It's as if he cant conceive of an alternative. Maybe he should revise his 12 Rules to include one about not being a dick.

I'm tired of helpless men. They are fun sponges and psychic vampires.

deepsolo is right - this is really down to convention. For most women now, make-up is something they feel obliged to wear to look presentable, regardless of age - in other societies and at other times, it's the men who wear make-up.

A few other points:

1. The idea that red lips and red cheeks mimic the way a woman looks during sex is just daft, isn't it? Women have worn make-up for centuries - how would they even know how they look during sex? Do they look at themselves in a mirror?

1. It completely ignores the playfulness of wearing make-up, and the enjoyment women get from different styles.

1. It ignores the social pressure on women to wear make-up.

1. It ignores the fact that older women and young girls - not in search of a sexual partner - wear make-up.

1. But most crucially, it ignores this fundamental point: even if his premise is right, and women are wearing make-up to increase their sexual attractiveness, this does not mean that women are inviting sexual harassment. The fact that a woman has made herself look attractive does not give a man the right to harass her. Almost everyone, including Peterson himself, I imagine, tries to look their best to attract a sexual partner. It doesn't mean that their body is then open to all-comers. The fact that Peterson doesn't grasp this simple and fundamental point suggests he is not the intellectual giant he imagines himself to be.

Upstart Crow

I'm tired of helpless men. They are fun sponges and psychic vampires

You put that so brilliantly. Completely agree. It gets so fucking wearing really fast.

It's just men sulking because women won't let them have a go on them
Because women want to live life For themselves (like men get to)

Oh he definitely is not the intellectual giant he thinks he is.

Sexually provocative - likely to cause someone to be sexually aroused.
But since pretty much anything can turn someone on that would suggest that existing gives someone the right to grope you then?

Ah, wait..

Yuk, reminds me of Hamlet's nasty "God hath given you one face" get thee to a nunnery woman blaming woman hating rant. What an arse.

I think you need anger management. How do you get on IRL when you can't discuss things without being offensive?

Anger management hahaha because I defended myself against someone rude to me? Good one. I provided a link and that person told me I was wrong, it was "projection" and I couldn't prove it

And yes I am angry about a man who has millions of followers, telling his large male audience that women who wear makeup cannot complain about being sexually harassed or they are hypocrites.

What sort of message do you think this sends out? If you aren't angry about this message then I suggest you get help.