Pregnant Dad-to-be

[Blocker]

"I hope it's human". www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/pregnancy/expecting/108554713/pregnant-kiwi-dadtobe-getting-ready-to-welcome-first-child-around-christmas?cid=app-iPhone

Apologies for the ridiculously long link (hope it works), I'm on my phone.

Maybe it's the fact I'm 39 weeks pregnant myself but the phrase "chest-feeding" does make me feel a little ill.

Interesting that apparently in NZ Scout can be put down as the Father on the birth certificate, and since a sperm donor was used, completely eliminates the concept of "mother"

My 'solution' is that people who have kids put their children first and don't use them as props in their identity 'validation'.

Okay so trans people can have children as long as they are not trans in front of their children. Makes sense

Okay so trans people can have children as long as they are not trans in front of their children.

Oh, just do one, Jez. You know fine well what people are saying. You know fine well that non-standard families - including trans parents - have a duty to be truthful and accurate with the information they give to their children so that those children do not suffer identity issues when they grow up. It's been documented over and over and over.

You just think it's fine to shit on a kid if you're trans.

You know what, Jez, people of all kinds have kids. I don't think anyone should be 'stopped' from having kids, but I acknowledge that not everyone who has kids makes choices that are in the best interests of their children, and actively make selfish choices instead.

I don't think that every decision a human makes that affects another human being is a neutral thing that can never be commented on, particularly if that decision is trumpeted in the media.

So, obviously, a trans person is free to lie to their child, and in some countries there are laws to facilitate that for them. I am free to say that's an example of bad parenting. You can wander through life with a rictus grin 'love matters more than truth' attitude to everything if you will.

If Scout tells the child that they were born with a female reproductive system but have a male gender, how is that more ‘wrong’ than the many, many parents who tell their children that they were in heaven before they were born?

I might not agree with Scout but it’s going to be hard work explaining to millions of children all the ways their parents are wrong.

Still, almost Christmas,should probably make a start with the Santa lie.

FloralBunting I don't think Scout telling the baby they are it's father is any more or less truthful than a Christian telling a child that God is their father.

Naturally as a parent one will tell their child what they believe to be true. And will do so with the best of intentions.

Of course trans people should have children if they wish. IMO they should not imply to children that they have actually changed sex. This is confusing to children (who have their own sexed bodies and need accurate information) and untruthful.

A lesbian couple accurately describing the process by which their child was conceived is doing nothing to undermine their child's understanding of reproduction and the integrity of their own body. No lies there.

I'm right with you on Santa merrymouse. Never lied to DC about that.

i don't think Scout telling the baby they are it's father is any more or less truthful than a Christian telling a child that God is their father.

Wait... you actually believe that? A biological father is a defined, real, verifiable thing. Scout is the child’s MOTHER. Scout has gestated the child in their womb and birthed it. Scouts genetic contribution cane via a large immobile gamete.

Scout telling the child they are their father is a demonstrably false statement.

The existence of not of god is a matter of faith.

Fascinating thought process. Literal denial of reality. Is this peak postmodernism?

Come now. You don’t believe that surely?

The religious comparison is a good analogy in terms of belief systems. But that doesn't tend to go down well with people who believe in transgenderism...

Both Scout and God could be classed as non-biological fathers.

What's your solution Floral?

Medics, psychologists and safeguarding guidelines all are of the opinion that age / ability appropriate truth is the way to go.

Families can look all sorts of ways. Two mums, two dads, guardians, foster families, adoptive and plain old boring mum and dad. All that is fine.

What’s not fine is lying to children about their origins or using children as a method of validating your own delusional thinking. Delusional being used in the medical sense here of course, rather than the perjorative.

Scout is the child’s mother.

Scout is the mother.
The child has a biological father.

I’m not entirely sure where god fits in - are you saying transgenderism is a belief? I’d agree with you on that - it’s a faith based system.

If you’re saying that any object can be a non biological father then so can the table my tea is currently resting on. That’s a statement with the same degree of logics and accuracy as saying scout is the father

So Scout tells the child they are it's mother... meaning Scout is no longer trans.

That they are it’s mother is a statement of reality.
That they identify as trans is not incompatible with that.

How are the two incompatible? It would only be incompatible if scout literally believed they had changed sex and made the child believe they had literally changed sex.

You don’t believe humans can change sex, do you jezebelz?

YY, bowl.

The primary beneficiary of directing a child to believe that their female parent can become a male parent seems to be the parent.

Scout telling their child that they are the mother does not make Scout 'not trans'. It makes Scout a parent who gives their child accurate information. Scout remains free to dress and behave in whatever way they wish.

As long as Scout tells the child they were the one who gave birth - which there is every indication Scout will - then who cares if the child calls Scout Papa.

Scout has not done anything yet, of course. So my PP is made in general terms. Who knows what they will actually do or not do.

Do you believe humans can change sex jezebelz? Genuine question.

You’ve shifted to what they call the parent - that is not the original point of the argument.

The original point is telling a prospective child they have no mother and pretending the mother is the father. Not what names a family unit call each other.

Again: can humans change sex? Yes or no?

Absolutely unbelievable. Jez actually thinks the inner identity of a trans parent is more important than poorer outcomes for children.

Bowlofbabelfish nope. But I believe humans should have the right to present as the gender that matches the sex they identify with. And to have that legally recognised.

But I believe humans should have the right to present as the gender that matches the sex they identify with.

Jezebelz, this is sexist. Gender roles are sexist stereotypes.

Also, people already have the right to present as whatever they wish. Nobody cares. In fact a 'masculine' mother is likely to inspire children wherever she goes and challenge sexism just by being herself.

A mother that hates the term 'mother' is free make their child call them something else. 'Dad' is deliberately misleading, IMO. It obscures an important reality for the child. But the child could e.g. call their mother by a pet name or their first name. Again, no lies there. Plenty of children do this. The focus should be on the child.

So what should lesbians do where the egg of one partner is implanted in the womb of the other?

Who gets the title of 'mother' and who gets the pet name?

Jezebelz, I've mainly popped in to say, solidarity. Thank you for your calm responses. And take care of yourself.

I also want to say, a lot of the responses here are about the wellbeing of the child.

The research evidence suggests that the children of LGBT people tend to grow up with a politically conscious mind and an ability to think critically. In terms of things like mental ill health and school attainment, being the child of LGBT people doesn't appear to have a negative impact.

On a personal level too, I know several children born to LGB and T people, including those born to transgender men. They are lovely kids, and have the same sorts of concerns and enjoyments as any other child I know. Their greatest issue is the homophobia, biphobia and transphobia of others. Where their schools take clear steps to address this, they tend to be happier.

I’m not entirely sure where god fits in - are you saying transgenderism is a belief? I’d agree with you on that - it’s a faith based system.

Absolutely. It's clear from the article that Scout believes in gender, and that therefore when they are talking about being a father they are referring to gender not sex. I don't agree with Scout, but I have no more interest in challenging Scout's beliefs on gender than I would have an interest in challenging Scout's beliefs on homeopathy or reincarnation as long as they don't affect me.

I agree that laws on gender very much affect me, but when you start questioning who should be on a birth certificate and how they should be described you open a very large can of worms. Unless you are going to insist that all fathers must go on birth certificates following a DNA test (how?) you have to accept that birth certificates often don't represent biological 'truth'.

The original point is telling a prospective child they have no mother and pretending the mother is the father.

I'm still not clear why anyone thinks Scout intends to do this, how you would be able to convince a child that they have no mother once they learn about sexual reproduction; assuming similar laws in NZ on sperm donors, how it would be possible to prevent a child from finding out about their genetic heritage, or how Scout would account for the fact that there is one birth certificate with Scout on it so Scout is clearly the child's mother.

Again, in a situation where a woman carries a child for two men using sperm from one of the men and a donor egg, the woman, and possibly her wife will be registered as the initial parents.

The two men can then get a parental order and a new birth certificate.

None of the birth certificates show the egg donor and none of them represent a combination of parents that is biologically possible.

Which birth certificate explains the child's parentage most accurately?

Of course a child should be able to have access to information on their genetic history, but they have never been able to do that simply by looking at a birth certificate. At most it can identify the person who gave birth to them, who must be female, regardless of their identity.