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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female prisoners in England left to give birth alone in their cells

204 replies

hackmum · 13/11/2018 08:13

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/13/female-prisoners-in-england-left-to-give-birth-alone-in-their-cells-report-reveals

I feel increasingly despondent about the way inmates are treated in women's prisons. Not only is it now apparently acceptable to shove a male rapist in with a bunch of vulnerable women, there is a lack of basic care for pregnant women. In my view, pregnant women shouldn't be in prison in the first place, unless they've done something very seriously wrong, which the vast majority haven't.

This particular report highlights the fact that some female prisoners have been left to give birth alone in their cells. It's a depressing read.

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 13/11/2018 11:21

Different prisons have different standards and protocols.

Coming back to the subject, there are several charities and organisations that support prisoners, maybe we could share a few.

Women in Prison are on Twitter @WIP_live
Agenda @Agenda_alliance

''A round-up and latest key statistics regarding women affected by the criminal justice system.''
www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php

ABitCrapper · 13/11/2018 11:23

choochoo did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or something? You are coming across like a 13 year old told to tidy their room.

RTB's post was entirely relevant - some of these pregnant women shouldn't have been in prison in the first place. And cutting costs in the justices system leads to failures like the one in the OP.

Wrathofjurgenklop · 13/11/2018 11:26

Choo
This may well be a thread about pregnant women in prison, but it doesn't limit what we want to discuss.

Whatever the circumstances a women finds herself pregnant either before or during her sentence needs discussing.

ems137 · 13/11/2018 11:33

choco
Every prison is different, my niece was in prison 2 years ago and didn't get drug or pregnancy tested on the way in, nor did she have a medical. They asked her if she was on, or had taken drugs and if she had any medical issues. Suppose they must have just taken her word for it?

Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 11:36

This may well be a thread about pregnant women in prison, but it doesn't limit what we want to discuss.

Unless of course someone has a completely different opinion. Then you can't.

UpstartCrow · 13/11/2018 11:42

Your opinion is that its acceptable to put the life of a newborn baby and the mother at risk, and its not one that you could reasonably expect to post unchallenged on a feminist board.

RedneckStumpy · 13/11/2018 11:52

Interesting thread I have a family member in the UK who works for the NHS in prisons. Actually I think his department has been purchased by Virgin healthcare. His job is specifically to compile stats for management in prisons is South West London, Surry, and Oxford.

I will message him and ask.

Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 11:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LangCleg · 13/11/2018 11:59

Austerity and the Justice system are a false economy.

Exactly. Public spending 101 - you can't cut what people want because if you do they won't vote for you, but if you cut what they need, you generate crisis, and the crisis causes costs to quadruple and transfer to other budgets.

So much of austerity is like this but criminal justice particularly so.

Spending a pound to save a penny.

Let's have worthwhile data collection, please, TPTB - then we can create public policy that a) actually works and b) saves money in the long run.

LangCleg · 13/11/2018 12:02

Here is the Royal College of Midwives' position statement on pregnant women in custody:

www.rcm.org.uk/sites/default/files/Women%20in%20Custody_4.pdf

Wrathofjurgenklop · 13/11/2018 12:03

Redneck
works for the NHS in prisons
.. and will be compiling stats.

Perfect.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 12:12

Ad hominem attacks. For those who have run put of other arguments.

It's amazing what people actively seek to discredit if the truth doesn't suit them.

ABitCrapper · 13/11/2018 12:24

choochoo post what the hell you like. Noone is stopping you. However, if you talk shit, expect people to challenge it.

Threewheeler1 · 13/11/2018 12:27

It's barbaric.Giving birth is terrifying, even with professional support.

Choo
It's anecdotal but I used to supervise female young offenders, in the community and in custody. The ones who ended up in custody, without any exceptions, had experienced some form of childhood trauma (physical abuse, domestic violence, CSA, severe neglect etc) and poverty.
Reading the chronology of significant events (usually been involvement from social services from a young age) when I took the case on was sometimes horrific. Some had grown up in local authority care and foster homes (a whole other thread required for that).
Wasn't hard to see why they had ended up offending. Abuse, neglect and deprivation usually characterised their childhood.
Most had been excluded from school with no alternative provision set up and the local authority had neglected their duty. They were left vulnerable to older men in the community who often initially supply free drugs in return for 'favours'.
Before long they were under the control of these predators, isolated with no way out, and had serious addiction issues. The cycle of abuse (social, physical, sexual, economic) and control continued. Groups of men will always prey upon young vulnerable girls.
If you live in an economically deprived area with high crime rates and grow up without a supportive family, whatever form that takes, it's unlikely you have the resources to bring about a positive change in your life without huge intervention from outside. And the earlier the better.
Poverty's a trap that's almost impossible to escape from without adequate support in all areas of your life. They weren't getting adequate support though. They were barely on the radar owing to the poor communication between different LA depts.
It was only when they were picked up by police for offending and their case came to the penal system that proper assessments were carried out.
How sad that it gets to that stage, that for all our sprawling services and well meaning staff, we can't use what we know to monitor, collect stats, identify, protect and support the vulnerable before they end up in the worst part of the system.
Services have been cut to the bone so alternatives have to be sought from the overburdened voluntary and charitable sector. There simply aren't enough services to cope with the demand so there are thousands of women and children falling into this scenario every year.

Choo, you seem to think this is all about poor individual choices but the idea of having any 'choice' in these situations is often an illusion.
Our underfunded and fractured systems are failing people constantly. Patchy service provision, at best, isn't going to change the circumstances of daily life for anyone in real need.
If you're a 14 year old girl who's been completely overlooked by education, welfare, been emotionally neglected all your life, physically and sexually abused then you are vulnerable. You'll do what you can to survive your environment, but you're hardly profiting or thriving by any measure.
If you end up, as a woman, in a prison system that neglects your safety, basic physical needs and those of your unborn child then doesn't that just confirm the worst lessons you've already learnt in life, that often people with power, authority and in positions of care, don't seem to behave properly?

Sorry, it's long but I feel quite strongly that a large portion of our female prison population shouldn't be there. It achieves nothing and often exacerbates existing problems. I know I was part of it for years as a social worker, but we need to fix the whole ineffective, shitty system.

Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 12:34

Ad hominem attacks. For those who have run put of other arguments.

Goady eejit
Selfish arse
Fucking horrible

Are all indeed ad hominem attacks, Redtoothbrush. Thank you so much for calling out those posters who were name calling. Flowers

It's refreshing. Because what normally happens on this board, is there's a bit of a pile on when a lone individual disagrees.
Other posters tend to twist words and accuse that one poster who disagrees of something they haven't done, whilst simultaneously ignoring the very same actions of other posters who they just happen to agree with.

But not you. That would be hypocritical right? Thank you Flowers

Gwlondon · 13/11/2018 12:47

Thank you for this thread. I think I will write to my MP as well.

arranfan · 13/11/2018 12:49

I want Julie Bindel, Richard Garside, and Frances Crook to have a webchat on Mumsnet and explain their ideas around reform of the criminal justice system to us and what a much improved system might resemble.

LangCleg · 13/11/2018 12:53

I want Julie Bindel, Richard Garside, and Frances Crook to have a webchat on Mumsnet and explain their ideas around reform of the criminal justice system to us and what a much improved system might resemble.

This would be fabulous.

WPUK are looking for extension topics post-consultation. It would be great if they could have a meeting that paid specific attention to women in prison.

hackmum · 13/11/2018 12:54

Actually, "goady eejit" , "selfish arse" and "fucking horrible" aren't ad hominem attacks. Ad hominem means that you attack someone based on another attribute, e.g. "What you say is completely untrustworthy because you work for the Guardian/vote Conservative/didn't go to university."

OP posts:
Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 13:01

See I was using this definition....

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself

I would say calling someone a "goady eejit" was attacking my motive, no?

I would say referring to me as "fucking horrible" attacks my character, as does "selfish arse"

Besides what else could Redtoothbrush possibly be talking about?

Mc180768 · 13/11/2018 13:06

I work in this area & know Dr Laura Abbott who conducted the research.
Unfortunately primary health care services in prisons are flaky to say the least. I have known mothers give birth, baby removed and mum back in gen pop with milk leaking....

The trauma of this under-researched and under resourced cohort of women is too immense to begun to unpick. Even major players in reform have failed to acknowledge these appalling outcomes.

One of the best providers of mother & baby healthcare in prisons is Askham Grange.

What's even more concerning is on release. And what happens to mum & baby. There is some recent research on MBU and the underuse of them in prisons by a barrister. It was commissioned by The Griffins Society.

I'll try to find some more links for this thread as I'd like to keep this flagged up on the radar.

littlbrowndog · 13/11/2018 13:07

What is it you actually want choo choo
Not clear really
You have had loads and loads of great explanations of the point in question but you still don’t engage in the debate
That post from 3wheller was great
But yet you ......

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/11/2018 13:08

I think this would be a great campaign for Mumsnet too.

Urgent action is needed, say Birth Companions. Pregnant women should have 24-hour telephone access to a midwife or labour ward. Prison staff, including nurses, should not make the decision as to whether a woman is in labour. Pregnant women locked in at night who call for help should be prioritised. Staff should be trained in emergency deliveries and at least one person with such training should be on the premises at night. And all stillbirths – after 24 weeks – should be reported as deaths in custody to the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman.

All the above is necessary, but I think a record of how many pregnant women are imprisoned should be added - I'm astonished they aren't actually recording that.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/11/2018 13:12

Can everyone please just ignore the obvious derailer. They clearly have nothing of value to add and replying to therm is a waste of a post. This is an important subject, and one that we could use the so-called Mumsnet effect to, err, great effect.

Melamin · 13/11/2018 13:13

but I think a record of how many pregnant women are imprisoned should be added

You would think that they would do this as a matter of course - it is surely a helpful tool for planning