That it's not just what you say, it's also how much you talk about it.

[NicolaHare]

Surprise, another trans thread! But the dynamics of online spaces fascinates me.

Take MWR. Some stats. Feminism Chat has been active since 2010. At this moment 364 pages of threads have been generated. 144 of those pages contain threads that were created or active since January this year. At the beginning of 2018 a significant portion of threads were trans themed and these threads tended to contain the most posts, and the board has only grown more fixated with the topic since then. You have to go quite a ways back to find a page of threads that isn’t 90-95% to do with trans people.

Nowhere else on the site is so obsessed. For example: on the LGBT themed boards you only have to go back 1 or 2 pages to find threads from 2017 and earlier. There aren’t any trans threads in the 1 and a fraction page of threads from 2018 on the politics board. There are, I think, about 2 in the half dozen pages of threads from this year in the currents affairs and news forum. And in 2018, all the education forums combined have generated about 5 trans threads.

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Not surprising, though. Trans sceptical feminism ironically almost always ends up focusing on the transgender question to the exclusion of all other topics that its proponents believe that trans inclusive feminisms are neglecting, and so neglects them to an even greater degree. Honestly, I’m sceptical that they are being neglected at all: it seems to me that conversations about pregnancy, menstruation ect are happening in public view at far greater volume than ever before, taboos surrounding bodily functions are increasingly discarded by the discourse and pop culture, and that when we talk about erasure we’re actually quibbling about terminology, the trappings of language and not the substance of the conversation. To assign a motivation to the common theme on feminism chat of “We are being silenced elsewhere!” a significant part of it might be the catharsis of imagined persecution. “We are saying the truths THEY don’t want you to hear! We are rebels!”

(This interview with a former gender critical trans woman is worth reading. It’s American and several years old, but it describes the many of the other toxic intellectual cul-de-sacs you can observe in MWR. www.transadvocate.com/is-sadism-popular-with-terfs-a-chat-with-an-ex-gendercrit_n_18568.htm)

But to set aside the discussion of substance. Do you think that the mere volume of trans threads in feminism chat is indicative of a kind of transphobia? If it were a forum of straight people talking about nothing but same sex attracted people, even if what they had to say was positive would we not be inclined to see in it's users a troubling insecurity with regards to queerness. If it were a forum of white people talking about nothing but people of colour in the most effusive terms, would we take this at face value or would we assign sinister motives (as the resonance of Get Out suggests many would)?

Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them?

You are seriously saying this with a straight face?

Oh lord.

Though I can see how you might think this not to be the case if the only feminism you engage with is a forum that obsessively catalogues every impolite request to use more inclusive language that makes the news or goes viral on social media, and every instance of a person being chastised or having some kind of career setback for not using the latest terms generated by the activist language merry-go-round.

I think you have made your point.

Stephen Whittle rocked up about 6 months ago to tell us to get out more instead of obsessing. When asked a bunch of searching and in depth questions Whittle then scarpered after saying it was only ever all about them...no shits given for the impact.

So as you too are in the mode of "tell them they are embarrassingly obsessed and they will realise there is a higher calling (please the men, please please the men whilst they perform identity anywhere they like", we should let you know, we have heard it all before.

Quoting Whittle's own paper here...

The privileges afforded by legal recognition and gendered belonging should never be underestimated (Prosser 1998) and the desire for these does not make gender/sexual dissidents apolitical and acquiescent
socresonline.org.uk/12/1/whittle.html

Yes I would love to never have to discuss trans issues ever again and retreat back to lurking on the creative writing board. But I have a daughter (amongst other reasons) so for me that isn't an option.

There is a concerted effort to change the actual definition of biological sex. What is a woman and what is a man.
And you think women shouldn't talk about it?
You think this doesn't effect us?
This is massive. I think the whole country should be talking about it.

I
will
not
shut
up.

I will talk about what I want, when I want. End fucking of.

Is there anything further you wish to remonstrate with me about, OP?

If you want to talk about othering, I recommend looking at how the word 'terf' is used along with all the violent rhetoric and gendered abuse that commonly goes with it.

The FWR boards are focused on trans issues because trans activists reinforce gender stereotypes, dismiss the roots of oppression against women, medicalise children, fight for the roll back of women's rights and try to stop women from discussing it.
The trans movement has a serious misogyny problem and women are going to talk about it whether you like it or not.

Also, oddly, I've found trans activists a lot more genuinely transphobic than the women on this board. The abuse aimed at trans women who don't toe the party line is genuinely horrific. Gender critical feminists aren't the ones using words like 'truscum'

What a load of pretentious bollocks you spout, Nicola. You're aware that you're not the only person here to have gone to university, yes?

We talk about it because most of us on here believe in material reality, and can clearly see the massive potential implications for women's rights as well as those it is already affecting. We've witnessed the behaviour and violent language of extreme trans activists and note how it seems remarkably similar to the abusive and coercive behaviour many women on here have experienced in real life. Once you see it, you can't unsee it, I'm afraid. We are interested in reality, not theories.

We can see that women's voices and rights to talk about their lived experiences being deliberately shut down. and women silenced. That is a rights issue. We are witnessing one of the most openly misogynist and homophobic movements I've seen in the West in my lifetime and it's being loudly supported by the supposedly progressive and the wilfully blind.

There are huge implications also for free speech, the rule of law, democratic process and safeguarding in this country. People on this board are way ahead of the curve here. The issues we're raising are going to grow as more people realise, not go away, no matter how many useful idiots try to silence those speaking out..

So no, I won't shut up about it. We can see this clearly and have a much bigger picture view than you. The fact you can't isn't our problem. The only bubble is yours. You can close your ears to reality if you like, but it's going nowhere, no matter how much wanky postmodern queer theory you like to show us you've been taught.

StarsAndWater

Excellent.

Give me strength.

Feminism, second wave in particular, which is the most well represented on this board, is, in large part concerned with dismantling the system of Gender which is the means by which women as a class are oppressed.

If a whole movement springs up which claims to 'subvert' Gender, while in practice rigidly enforcing it, then you can expect feminists to discuss it, just as they were discussing the harm the Gender system does before Transactivists came along and started claiming that men were better at feminism and being women than women were.

Somebody else else telling women to shut up. How refreshing.
The thing is, no matter how much 'wafty bollock' (thanks LBD) you put in front of us, we are never going to agree that people can change sex.
And we are never going to stop fighting for our sex-based rights and against the damage caused by ROGD.

Why should men get to define what a woman is?

There's plenty of genuine, horrible transphobia all over the internet. Yet people are only here, shouting at us. I wonder why.

I assume, as the dynamics of online spaces fascinate the OP, they will have also discussed the issue of transphobia on other online forums such as those sometimes linked to on FWR. I'd be interested to know what sort of responses the OP got from those spaces.

If you haven't got round to those other places yet OP, I also wonder why you chose MN as your starting point?

Check out Breastfeeding Network UK on Facebook to see just how far down the rabbit hole they have gone.

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them?

Why would people on a site called mumsnet be concerned about losing any meaningful definition of the word ‘woman’? It’s a real stumper isn’t it!

I suppose if you were completely oblivious to any of the consequences of being born female you might find this difficult to understand.

I shan’t be shutting up either.

Was there anything else you wanted to talk about OP? We’ve done ‘shut up’. Other popular greatest hits are:

-You’re all mean
-Echo chamber/danger to public (just pick one of those, obviously...)
-What About Intersex ?

• obsessed with genitals
• veiled threats
• It Doesn’t Affect You/Minor Administrative Change
• I used to agree with you but you’re all So Mean (see point one.)

-whataboutthemen

We’ve done them all to death, but we are fairly tireless. And not shutting up.

Also same sex attracted people are now queer, or have queerness? Fuck off with your queerness. I’m fed up with these kids marching in and telling everybody else what we are. Queer is one of those words that made me scared shitless of who I was when I was growing up. Queer was one of the words that made me latch onto the first abusive arsehole man I could find, just to escape it. Queer is one of the reasons kids nowadays can’t come to terms with their own homosexuality, because as far as we’ve seemingly come, still they can’t bare the thought that they are gay or lesbian. Queer hasn’t been reclaimed, it’s just been repurposed as a cool woke way to be anything but homosexual, or even worse, for straight people to get a slice of the special glittery rainbow pie.

Honestly you can do one with your redefining language. We have all the words we need. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, woman, all perfectly good words with well defined and understood meanings. Just because you can’t come to terms with whether or not and how they apply to you, that’s your problem, not ours. It’s nobody else’s job to redefine themselves just to make you more comfortable.

Right, sorry, derailing rant over.

I used to agree with you but you’re all So Mean (see point one.)

Thats the stupidest one

Its so obviously a lie and its on loads of different boards

And don't forget, the most useful footnote to the list -

What about transmen? Ah, you claim you care about women, but you don't care about transmen! Who are women! Well, er, no, transmen are men! Oh look, a pigeon!

And while we're on the subject of lesbianim being rebranded as vagina fetishism, adult male bodied, entitled transwomen who go after lesbians, aren't just attacking homosexuality, they're attacking heterosexuality.

I'm a heterosexual woman and I like men, with penises. I don't like men with vaginas.

OP can you link us to your other research into online spaces, for example how does MN FWR compare on these issues with other forums? Reddit for example?

Or is MN FWR the only forum you have an 'interest' in? I'd like to compare your methodology. Ta.

Why are people allowed to come on FWR and tell us what to talk about and how often? Just why? It wouldn't be tolerated on any of the other specialist boards to have people constantly going on there and telling them they are talking too much, or about the wrong subject. It's just fucking rude.

This board is about feminism and women's rights. Get over it.

Natural tbf the OP didn't post it on FWR, MNHQ moved it here.

My oh my, the OP has gone very quiet all of a sudden, has the woke 'intellectual' well dried up?

^Women!

I identify as your overlord, I don't like what you say, the way you say it and how often it's said so kindly stfu!
^
Bore off mate.

pancaketosser hear hear. As one feminist to another OP, why not try solving the problem with those who have the actual power? Once that's sorted come back here and we'll see what we can do.

If you're not overwhelmed by the huge numbers of transphobic posts elsewhere on the internet, maybe that's because those who wield actual power just don't gaf because they know their own position isn't threatened. Also they like kink so another layer of what they may see as sexually available feminine individuals who enjoy perfomative femininity might not seem like such a bad thing to them (many of them like to think of themselves as 'try anything once' types). And woke bros love to rub women's noses in all the transwoman tropes (twaw etc), but I'm not sure how that fits into your calcuations.

But you seem smart, I'm sure you can figure it out.

"... the dynamics of online spaces fascinates me."

Everyone should have a hobby.