That it's not just what you say, it's also how much you talk about it.

[NicolaHare]

Surprise, another trans thread! But the dynamics of online spaces fascinates me.

Take MWR. Some stats. Feminism Chat has been active since 2010. At this moment 364 pages of threads have been generated. 144 of those pages contain threads that were created or active since January this year. At the beginning of 2018 a significant portion of threads were trans themed and these threads tended to contain the most posts, and the board has only grown more fixated with the topic since then. You have to go quite a ways back to find a page of threads that isn’t 90-95% to do with trans people.

Nowhere else on the site is so obsessed. For example: on the LGBT themed boards you only have to go back 1 or 2 pages to find threads from 2017 and earlier. There aren’t any trans threads in the 1 and a fraction page of threads from 2018 on the politics board. There are, I think, about 2 in the half dozen pages of threads from this year in the currents affairs and news forum. And in 2018, all the education forums combined have generated about 5 trans threads.

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Not surprising, though. Trans sceptical feminism ironically almost always ends up focusing on the transgender question to the exclusion of all other topics that its proponents believe that trans inclusive feminisms are neglecting, and so neglects them to an even greater degree. Honestly, I’m sceptical that they are being neglected at all: it seems to me that conversations about pregnancy, menstruation ect are happening in public view at far greater volume than ever before, taboos surrounding bodily functions are increasingly discarded by the discourse and pop culture, and that when we talk about erasure we’re actually quibbling about terminology, the trappings of language and not the substance of the conversation. To assign a motivation to the common theme on feminism chat of “We are being silenced elsewhere!” a significant part of it might be the catharsis of imagined persecution. “We are saying the truths THEY don’t want you to hear! We are rebels!”

(This interview with a former gender critical trans woman is worth reading. It’s American and several years old, but it describes the many of the other toxic intellectual cul-de-sacs you can observe in MWR. www.transadvocate.com/is-sadism-popular-with-terfs-a-chat-with-an-ex-gendercrit_n_18568.htm)

But to set aside the discussion of substance. Do you think that the mere volume of trans threads in feminism chat is indicative of a kind of transphobia? If it were a forum of straight people talking about nothing but same sex attracted people, even if what they had to say was positive would we not be inclined to see in it's users a troubling insecurity with regards to queerness. If it were a forum of white people talking about nothing but people of colour in the most effusive terms, would we take this at face value or would we assign sinister motives (as the resonance of Get Out suggests many would)?

as trans folk are similarly subject to homophobia.

Totally, OP. Those bloody lesbians insisting of only liking female genitalia and refusing to have penetrative sex with a transwoman’s ‘lady’ penis. Shocking really. I can completely understand why certain TRAs demand to break through the ‘cotton ceiling’. There may be a hint of sarcasm in that post 😉

Trans ideology poses the biggest threat to women's rights in a century. The issue of transgender children is likely to be the biggest medical scandal ever. Of course women want to talk about these things. They are hugely significant.

Not to mention the government public consultation about proposed reforms to the GRA.

The government expect women to talk about this, as a necessary part of the public consultation.

It does amaze me that certain people think women want to talk about transactivism. It's tedious, depressing and shocking. It makes you realise quite how many people buy into detrimental gender roles for women. And it uncovers all manner of predatory, pervy men.

It's distressing and nauseating reading about the number of men with fetishes, the number of weirdos who are sexually interested in women's Tampax ffs, how they convince one another they lactate, etc.

Some of this reduces women to tears. The misogyny behind making comparisons between infertile women and men who fetishise gestation and birth - here on this site, a site populated by women, in real time.

Do you think the mothers on this site are happy to look at penis packers for three-year-old little girls, ffs??

Do you think the photographs of a young woman's arm flayed to the bone didn't make almost every woman who looked at it well up with shocked, savagely worried tears. Those same women who see young girls coming out as trans in their droves.

So don't you dare, don't you bloody dare ask why women are obsessed with the trans ideology. When it is the trans ideology that is obsessed with them and their children.

Bloody GC feminists, eh OP? Talking about the biggest single threat to Women's and girl's rights, privacy, safety and right to self- determination on a board specifically for women to talk about feminist issues! Whatever next? Trans advocates blocking anyone who poses even a remotely inquiring question on Twitter in order to prevent any sort of discussion?

Yeah seems pretty unfair that FWR is constantly accused of being trans obsessed when sometimes it's MNHQ that have decided to put some of it here.

If it were a forum of straight people talking about nothing but same sex attracted people, even if what they had to say was positive would we not be inclined to see in it's users a troubling insecurity with regards to queerness. If it were a forum of white people talking about nothing but people of colour in the most effusive terms, would we take this at face value or would we assign sinister motives
You can't have it all ways. Either trans women are women in which case your analogy falls down (as it's more akin to a forum for gay people discussing gayness). Or trans women aren't women, in which case you are being transphobic.

Queer theory bores the tits off me. Especially Serano.

Most of it is just cheap misappropriation of the ideas of feminist thinkers, said in a louder (male) voice.

The reason I post about trans ideology on these boards is because it’s affecting the lives of real-world women, right here, right now.

I'd be very happy never to talk about trans ideology and transactivists ever again if they would leave women and our rights alone.

Why does FWR have to put up with this shit? Why can't we just be left alone to talk to each other fucking ever, even once? Even the OP put the thread somewhere else so that others could talk about us, which they are more than free to do.

Quite. This one has a slightly different tactic, though. It seems we're graciously allowed to talk (thank you kindly, m'whateveryourgenderis) just not so much.

Why is it inappropriate with regards to the specific analogies that I've drawn - particularly wrt the straight people talking about gay people example, as trans folk are similarly subject to homophobia

Did you listen to Fae explain?

Right...slightly confused

So is it that STARTING a thread about some sort of trans related issue is transphobic

Is it the TYPE of trans related thread that's important

Is it POSTING on a trans related thread that's transphobic

Or is it the AMOUNT of trans related threads thats the problem, in which case are you suggesting a limit and who will decide the limit

Also if there is a limt will a thread that goes past 1000 and a second thread is started will it count as two threads

And ...if a thread is a 'shout out to my trans siblings' type thread will that count

Please and thank you

Well said Datun.

I'm not convinced that retreating to a limited perspective, single issue echo chamber

Ah now make your mind up. Are we an evil hydra like being corrupting all and sundry or a bitter group of hairy feminists talking to ourselves?

Are we irrelevant or a danger?

Trans people who come out in more recent years (particularly those of younger generations) increasingly use her tools to conceptualise themselves and the world, which is part of a more widespread adoption of post-modern perspectives that identity is performative, which many people who have never lived in a world without personal computers feel are the best theories we have for understanding life in the internet age.

I can see the value in people discussing how much identity is performative and I do think the internet has changed people and society quite drastically. That needs serious discussion and thought.

But here's the thing. 'Young people' will always find it pretty easy to view identity as performative and swallow these theories generally. Life up to the end of university should feature lots of debate and discussion about who you are and what the world is. It's a good thing that things feel flexible and changeable at that age and obviously students in the past have changed the world because they've looked at the world and challenged the status quo.

But identity isn't performative. Not really. Most people realise that with some life experience. As the women here are saying over and over again, you can't identify out of certain oppressions. Fgm victims can't, girls who are married at 8 or 9 can't. Rape victims can't. I can't escape the disability which has shattered my life. Yes we can work to change how women are viewed and treated and that's a good thing but there are some fundamental oppressions which are a long way from ending. If you have a transwoman and a woman sitting in a room and someone enters and says 'right women present in this room are to go through fgm.' What can the woman do in that moment to escape that? Nothing. The transwoman can raise a hand and say 'actually I'm male' and step out of the room. They can identify out of that harm. That goes for so many different scenarios.

Post-modernism is really not worth anything. I think you making a very deliberate attempt to enter this space as a supposedly authoritative, educated person who is here to set the silly bigots straight. Using a certain style of writing is pretty bamboozling to anyone who feels slightly inadequate, intellectually speaking. It makes people doubt themselves.

Everything you're writing has already been considered here in depth and dismissed for very good reason.

Why is it inappropriate with regards to the specific analogies that I've drawn - particularly wrt the straight people talking about gay people example, as trans folk are similarly subject to homophobia.

Speaking as a lesbian, it's the homophobia in trans ideology that makes me angriest nowadays. LGBT & the rainbow are now nothing to do with L, a bit about G & B (though less than they were) and almost all about transpeople, I know young lesbians who feel condemned by their own community for not being into penis (thank fuck I came out in the 90s) and Lesbians Are Female Homosexuals has become a controversial statement. Given the choice between straight people & LGBT I'll take the straight people any day.

In a nutshell rufus I think it boils down to not shutting up when you’re told.

Wafty bollocks indeed.

Not you Rufus. Obvs.

In a nutshell rufus I think it boils down to not shutting up when you’re told

Really?

Oh...

Well! that would have been a much shorter and easier to read OP

Ah now make your mind up. Are we an evil hydra like being corrupting all and sundry or a bitter group of hairy feminists talking to ourselves?

Indeed.

Sack

I wouldnt be at all offended it someone called my post 'wafty bollocks"

It probably sums my posts up

Ah now make your mind up. Are we an evil hydra like being corrupting all and sundry or a bitter group of hairy feminists talking to ourselves?

Yes indeed. And it never ceases to amaze me how somebody who is presumably, well read, can come across as so ignorant.

This is poor choice by the MNHQ and seriously limits the introduction of trans perspectives (which often include these words in their articulation) into discussion.

Yes, language is very important in being able to describe your position. Glad you agree.
So how's about not appropriating 'woman' and 'female' so we can talk about our lived experiences.

Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them?

As Ereshkigal said, I'd be very happy never to talk about trans ideology and transactivists ever again if they would leave women and our rights alone.

The problem is, that all major women’s organisations are actively supporting this ideology, many because their funding depends on it (this is certainly the case in Scotland). For any other issue that affects women and girls, I could trust that one or more of the women’s orgs would be on the case. This is no longer true.

Women are entirely unrepresented, and have had to start their own grassroots organisations in order to try and address this. And many of those grassroots orgs that have sprung up have started, or been heavily supported, from MN FWR.

Queer theory bores the tits off me. Especially Serano.

Also me. Self-serving, bourgeois, navel-gazing.

I love Marcus for going to this much effort to refute:

medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026

Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them?

Really? I thought TWAW??
After having TW in our changing rooms, winning medals in women's sport, on AWL.... we should stfu because we know naught about TW and are not same?? Then they are TW and NOT Women.

Get the hell out of our spaces and we will stop talking about you.

I'd happily never broach the subject again.

Knowing that the endgame is punching is until we stop talking just keeps us discussing it.

So perhaps stop threatening to punch us, doxx us, get us fired, intimidating us, screenshoting us, making bomb threats, stopping us from meeting, and generally behaving like abusive men towards us and the conversation will naturally die down.

Simples.