That it's not just what you say, it's also how much you talk about it.

[NicolaHare]

Surprise, another trans thread! But the dynamics of online spaces fascinates me.

Take MWR. Some stats. Feminism Chat has been active since 2010. At this moment 364 pages of threads have been generated. 144 of those pages contain threads that were created or active since January this year. At the beginning of 2018 a significant portion of threads were trans themed and these threads tended to contain the most posts, and the board has only grown more fixated with the topic since then. You have to go quite a ways back to find a page of threads that isn’t 90-95% to do with trans people.

Nowhere else on the site is so obsessed. For example: on the LGBT themed boards you only have to go back 1 or 2 pages to find threads from 2017 and earlier. There aren’t any trans threads in the 1 and a fraction page of threads from 2018 on the politics board. There are, I think, about 2 in the half dozen pages of threads from this year in the currents affairs and news forum. And in 2018, all the education forums combined have generated about 5 trans threads.

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Not surprising, though. Trans sceptical feminism ironically almost always ends up focusing on the transgender question to the exclusion of all other topics that its proponents believe that trans inclusive feminisms are neglecting, and so neglects them to an even greater degree. Honestly, I’m sceptical that they are being neglected at all: it seems to me that conversations about pregnancy, menstruation ect are happening in public view at far greater volume than ever before, taboos surrounding bodily functions are increasingly discarded by the discourse and pop culture, and that when we talk about erasure we’re actually quibbling about terminology, the trappings of language and not the substance of the conversation. To assign a motivation to the common theme on feminism chat of “We are being silenced elsewhere!” a significant part of it might be the catharsis of imagined persecution. “We are saying the truths THEY don’t want you to hear! We are rebels!”

(This interview with a former gender critical trans woman is worth reading. It’s American and several years old, but it describes the many of the other toxic intellectual cul-de-sacs you can observe in MWR. www.transadvocate.com/is-sadism-popular-with-terfs-a-chat-with-an-ex-gendercrit_n_18568.htm)

But to set aside the discussion of substance. Do you think that the mere volume of trans threads in feminism chat is indicative of a kind of transphobia? If it were a forum of straight people talking about nothing but same sex attracted people, even if what they had to say was positive would we not be inclined to see in it's users a troubling insecurity with regards to queerness. If it were a forum of white people talking about nothing but people of colour in the most effusive terms, would we take this at face value or would we assign sinister motives (as the resonance of Get Out suggests many would)?

I love how Nicola can't bear to admit that "yes, but they're mostly men, so they're allowed to think whatever they think even if I don't approve" is the actual reason why she's not going to scold Kiwi Farms (or Reddit or whatever).

The mummies are being insufficiently supportive and that's terribly disappointing for someone who's overly invested in gender roles.

I emptied the dishwasher today and that's enough compliant-womaning for at least a week. Come back next Wednesday, Nicola, I might be more accommodating.

Such wonderful analysis, resistance, sheer brilliance from so many women. Thank you all

My big concern is how the culture is changing/ has changed ahead of the law. If I read about a 'woman' in a newspaper I look very carefully at the subtext to see whether the person in the story is female - or not. I am enraged and outraged at this loss of the meaning of the word - the word woman means adult human female not what anyone wants it to mean at any point. That's why we need to keep talking about the effect that the trans ideology is having on women's rights (among all the other reasons too of course!).

Back having been re-energised in the Junior Common Room with beverage and cake.

Just wanted to pick up on this comment which HouseMouseQueen1969 highlighted a few posts back:

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Particularly the words group of people they don't belong to - women don't belong in the group of people who are trans BUT those self same people who are trans and declare themselves as women belong in the group of people who are women?????? And Nicola doesn't understand the problem with this and why women are kicking back against it, Nicola's own words damn her/him/them.

Brava women of FWR. This has been one of the finest response threads I've seen in many a year.

It was also lovely to see the photo of Jacqueline Sephora Andrews. A transwoman of rare insight and charm.

Nicola as you're frightened of posting similarly on KF, might I suggest data lounge instead?

We all know the real reason you and your fellow traveller post here to tell women to shut up. We know that it's because you know that all you'll get here is words because, despite the TRA protestations to the contrary, it's not women's liberationists who dox and harass transwomen, it's men. What has always struck me as somewhat self defeating in your argument is that, you actually do know which people are men and which are women, and we know you do because of the different ways you talk to men and women. The same way as you always know who it is who is society has deemed suitable for wiping arses and caring for everyone. What people who share your ideology want is for those oppressive gender roles to be reified ever more tightly to only contain the women you demarcate and demean as c*s. Is it any wonder that women feel the need to discuss our liberation from that ever more keenly?

ReddogsBEG said it before I had a chance, but

Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Yes. They don't belong to the group of people who are women. Who are on MN. So why are they saying they are the women (transwomen are women) and we are the non women?? Transwomen need a place in society. Their place, not women's place.

That was a terrific analysis Materialist, and one which makes sense of the emergence of this issue as so high profile. The erasure of collective action is clearly of benefit to those who want more control - and by destabilising language, it makes talking about it very difficult.

I am so proud of women for holding the line, despite the aggression directed towards us.

Just nipping in to add my thanks for this thread. I'm generally a lurker but am so thankful to FWR and its wonderful regulars, some of whom have been lost in action, for their persistence, intellectual and political rigour, and unstinting compassion and concern for women and girls. Threads like these have been revelatory - nay, life-changing - for me. Thank you.

Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Yeah, and why would black people obsess about white people who identify as black in order to take resources, scholarships for black people and appropriate and redefine their culture, history and standing in law. It makes no sense. they are not even white. Just leave the white people alone!

1+3=2 wrong
2+4=8 wrong

1+3+2+4=2+8 right

Hey! Two wrongs do make a right!

The theories of identity formulated in queer theory are so dense and wooly as to be meaningless. That these identities require such long-winded justification and explanation; and that they require that the whole world conform or acknowledge them reveals the very shaky and insupportable nature of them.Meaningful and well founded identities have an inner integrity; an integrity founded on some core personal value or possession.

There is no such thing as gender identity - outside of the trans community. Any identity which could be described as 'gendered' arises, necessarily, from our biological reality and the lived experience in that body. Gender, as a performance, whether 'performed' by natal women or by trans mtf can never be a sound basis for identity; merely the performance of a role with an accompanying set of socially demarcated signifiers. Theatre, not reality.

Wow, what is this black-hole I just fell into? I haven't ever been on the feminist boards but I will have to go nosey. I have to confess I can't understand all of this, partly because I'm unfamiliar with some of the terminology and partly because I'm a post-meonopausal out-of-date, ill-educated, working-class woman. And you can call me what the fuck you like but I'm sticking with woman.
However I identify with a much younger, able-bodied version of myself (which I used to be) and a richer version of me who lives in a more comfortable house (not happened yet) so who do I see to make that happen?
I would really love to know what is is about being 'woman' that is so appealling? I don't give a fuck who or what anyone has sex with, (as long as it's concensual), what they wear, what they do to their body parts (hell I draw the line at shaving off my eyebrows and drawing new ones on but you do what the fuck you like), what jobs or hobbies they do, whether they are generally assertive or diminuitive, extroverts or introverts, as long as they are happy with their own persona and their behaviour doesn't negatively imapct on me, etc etc, so I'd love to know what a trans-woman feels she is missing out on No genuinely, not being goady.

Welcome to the Feminist board (FWR for short) hdh747

(The thread got moved, so you came over with it!)

And hello to all the other lurkers & rare posters, especially those that spoke up for the first time on this thread.

Women here are from all kinds of backgrounds and at all kinds of life stages, so don’t let being post-menopausal, out-of-date, ill-educated and working class put you off getting involved

Many people new to the issues have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Thank you very much. I shall settle in with a

And because you made me welcome I bring

hdh747 - do stick around! We don't do much theory, honest!

Nice to meet you, hdh747. I'm post menopausal too, and my health is crap, but luckily on social media no one can hear you creak...

would really love to know what is is about being 'woman' that is so appealling?

Well, quite. I don't see all the woke TWs queuing up to have a pay cut of one fifth or take on most of the domestic and emotional labour for a start.

It's almost like they have imaginary ideas about what 'being a woman' means.

Oh, wait...

And because you made me welcome I bring

No no no! hdh747 you’re making it obvious you’re a newbie. This is FWR. This is the appropriate gift. 😁

Welcome to the reality show, where you will learn to stop being ‘nice’, and learn more about the real threats to women’s rights to safety, dignity and privacy. Now that the scales have fallen from your eyes, there’s no going back. Btw, mines a large one.

Welcome hdh747! I prefer to so I shall happily accept those.

But I don't like booze and I do like flowers. I can still be a feminist right? Besides I already told you I'm working class, aka skint, and flowers are cheaper.

As long as you don‘t bring a glitter ball, I‘m all right. Hi and enjoy the party 🎈.

So much word salad I couldn’t even get through the OP.

Women don’t have willies. We don’t want male bodies in our intimate spaces, on our sports teams or usurping our places in politics or business which are carved out in recognition that we have been oppressed as a result of our biology.

Some people are trying to force us to give up our hard-fought for rights. We are pushing back for the sake of our children & grandchildren.

This shouldn’t be bemusing.

E.F. Schumacher (probably rather than Einstein)
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.”