That it's not just what you say, it's also how much you talk about it.

[NicolaHare]

Surprise, another trans thread! But the dynamics of online spaces fascinates me.

Take MWR. Some stats. Feminism Chat has been active since 2010. At this moment 364 pages of threads have been generated. 144 of those pages contain threads that were created or active since January this year. At the beginning of 2018 a significant portion of threads were trans themed and these threads tended to contain the most posts, and the board has only grown more fixated with the topic since then. You have to go quite a ways back to find a page of threads that isn’t 90-95% to do with trans people.

Nowhere else on the site is so obsessed. For example: on the LGBT themed boards you only have to go back 1 or 2 pages to find threads from 2017 and earlier. There aren’t any trans threads in the 1 and a fraction page of threads from 2018 on the politics board. There are, I think, about 2 in the half dozen pages of threads from this year in the currents affairs and news forum. And in 2018, all the education forums combined have generated about 5 trans threads.

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Not surprising, though. Trans sceptical feminism ironically almost always ends up focusing on the transgender question to the exclusion of all other topics that its proponents believe that trans inclusive feminisms are neglecting, and so neglects them to an even greater degree. Honestly, I’m sceptical that they are being neglected at all: it seems to me that conversations about pregnancy, menstruation ect are happening in public view at far greater volume than ever before, taboos surrounding bodily functions are increasingly discarded by the discourse and pop culture, and that when we talk about erasure we’re actually quibbling about terminology, the trappings of language and not the substance of the conversation. To assign a motivation to the common theme on feminism chat of “We are being silenced elsewhere!” a significant part of it might be the catharsis of imagined persecution. “We are saying the truths THEY don’t want you to hear! We are rebels!”

(This interview with a former gender critical trans woman is worth reading. It’s American and several years old, but it describes the many of the other toxic intellectual cul-de-sacs you can observe in MWR. www.transadvocate.com/is-sadism-popular-with-terfs-a-chat-with-an-ex-gendercrit_n_18568.htm)

But to set aside the discussion of substance. Do you think that the mere volume of trans threads in feminism chat is indicative of a kind of transphobia? If it were a forum of straight people talking about nothing but same sex attracted people, even if what they had to say was positive would we not be inclined to see in it's users a troubling insecurity with regards to queerness. If it were a forum of white people talking about nothing but people of colour in the most effusive terms, would we take this at face value or would we assign sinister motives (as the resonance of Get Out suggests many would)?

..and no it is not about being phobic, but about the sheer lunacy of current trans ideology. And the 'trans children' issue is the biggest scandal in the making. We've woken up and found we've sleep walked into an Orwellian nightmare, where language and conceptual change is being forced on an unwilling and unaccepting population.

Standing applause. Brava.
Written for the wider audience.
We've been reading every word.

No word from Nicola on what criteria might help identify someone with a feminine or masculine gender

I would guess because she has (correctly) identified it as a trap.

Whatever she replies, we'll all be able to say 'sexism!' 'stereotypes!'

But, Nicola, since you're inviting us to do some self reflection, maybe you could do likewise?

If you are unable to explain your views to an interested audience because that audience may then draw the conclusion that you're sexist - could it be that maybe your views are sexist ?

Feminism concerns women's rights. Current TRA campaigning is in direct conflict with feminism and women's rights.

Think of it this way - TRA "movement" is FWR "Brexit".

Thank you floral.

I worry it sounds a bit tinfoil hat ... but then half of it has happened already. So...

"If your feminist project is to dismantle the rigid enforcement of gender roles, the lived experiences of trans people suggests that this would lead to more people coming out as trans, and not as CG theory suggest all dysphoric people deciding that they can happily live as masculine women and feminine men."

How about just being yourself without slavish adherence to gendered expectations and expressions. You don't need to "identify" as trans to do this. I can't believe how regressive this whole trans business is.

If it didn't have such severe implications for women it wouldn't matter. But it does.

What is trans but a rigid adherence to gender roles? That is literally what transitioning entails.

We're feminists. we want to discuss women. People are trying to change what 'woman' means. Excuse if if we'd like to discuss that.

Also, fuck off.

And a huge yes to this being energising. So many women, such wisdom - in life generally, in wisdom gained from painful experience, from poverty and disenfranchisement. From having children and not having them. Women in technical fields, scientific, historical, medical, sociological areas and just plain old boots on the ground knowledge of the world and how it works. Military women, women of all races and religions, women who hold a religion, women who don’t, women who did but don’t any more.

All finding common ground in this - a threat to us all and a denial of the rights we fought so hard for. Imagine what we could do if just 1% of women worldwide rose up. Now imagine 5%. Ten? All of us? What a force to be reckoned with we would be.

I find it incredible and really rather wonderful that women from very different backgrounds and walks of life all talk here, and it doesn’t matter where we are from, what we look like or what we have. We are all just women. It’s heady stuff.

"If your feminist project is to dismantle the rigid enforcement of gender roles, the lived experiences of trans people suggests that this would lead to more people coming out as trans, and not as CG theory suggest all dysphoric people deciding that they can happily live as masculine women and feminine men."

Forgive me if this has been said already, but this really doesn't make sense to me.

Surely if the rigid enforcement of gender roles that we seem to be careering towards in society right now was dismantled - how would that mean 'more people coming out as trans'?

If there were no rigid gender roles, there would be nothing to 'trans' to and from? There wouldn't be 'masculine women' or 'feminine men'. Just people behaving how they want to behave, whilst still possessing the biological sex they are.

How would 'more people come out as trans' if we got rid of the stereotypes that label people 'masculine' and 'feminine'?

How would you 'trans' to 'feminine', if 'feminine' stereotypical behaviour could be exhibited by anyone?

There would be nothing to 'trans' to!

Excellent post Materialist

Bowl (because there isn't a muscle-arm on the list right now!) and for many other posters here on this thread.

I love this thread (and not for the reasons Nicola might want) because there's not another all-dancing, all-singing emoji on Mumsnet that sums up my warmth and cheer for so many brilliant posters here!

What is trans but a rigid adherence to gender roles? That is literally what transitioning entails

And not only that, it's the most superficial, vacuous gender roles. Certainly not the hard stuff, like raising the kids, doing all the housework and taking care of elderly relatives.

As a lesbian I am eternally grateful that Mumsnet is virtually the only place online that I can read and discuss trans ideology because I sure as hell cant discuss it in any LGBT groups because lesbians are silenced. Mumsnet does more for lesbians than our own orgs which is why so many lesbians want to get the L out.
Also the Labour Party Forum on Facebook has banned discussion of GC issues and universities try to stop debate.
This OP just pisses me off.

I find it incredible and really rather wonderful that women from very different backgrounds and walks of life all talk here, and it doesn’t matter where we are from, what we look like or what we have.

Me too. It is wonderful. Very thankful for MN and grateful to FWR posters.

It's astonishing that women could be construed as hateful for conducting a lengthy discussion about matters that affect women. And refusing to shut up when told.

Bowl, I don't know, I've had a steady diet of Armageddonism for a number of years, and it's pretty easy to distinguish the fantastical tin foil hattery from a clear sighted analysis of actual social trends and who they benefit.

I look at the make up of the human psyche, with its strange mixture of devious intent and sheer, bloodyminded incompetence and then just observe current events and politics, and all I can say is that I'm glad the human psyche also contains tenacious hope and good hearted pluck, because we would be fucked otherwise.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Floral you forgot stubbornness and sheer bloody mindedness when in a fix.

"If your feminist project is to dismantle the rigid enforcement of gender roles, the lived experiences of trans people suggests that this would lead to more people coming out as trans, and not as CG theory suggest all dysphoric people deciding that they can happily live as masculine women and feminine men."

What the actual fuck is the difference between the two?

What this really means is the more we convince you to give up your boundaries the more it's free for all for fetishists.

Nope. We can see through the BS, sorry. Stop trying to sell this finagling of gender back to us as liberation, we were not born yesterday.

finagle
[fɪˈneɪɡ(ə)l]

VERB
finagling (present participle)
obtain by dishonest or devious means.
"Ted attended all the football games he could finagle tickets for"
synonyms:
deceive · trick · dupe · outwit · fool · delude · cheat · take in · bluff · hoax · mislead · misguide · lead on · defraud · double-cross · swindle · gull · finagle · get the better of · [more]
act in a dishonest or devious manner.
"they wrangled and finagled over the fine points"
synonyms:
manoeuvre · ease · edge · manipulate · work · steer · engineer · inveigle · insinuate · ingratiate · wheedle · coax · cajole · finagle

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Feminists do tend to be highly concerned of men who are trying to take our hard won rights away. Who have beaten us, intimidated us, threatened to kill us. Have govts backing their male violence against us.

That's Feminism 101.

to the women on this thread.

I love you all! Well, except Nicola, who clearly needs some sort of "put down the Foucault and go for a bike ride or something" intervention.

to all.

cheers all

Well, except Nicola, who clearly needs some sort of "put down the Foucault and go for a bike ride or something" intervention.

Or, even better...

Well, except Nicola, who clearly needs to put her money where her mouth is and do some white knighting over at Kiwi Farms then report back.

Not that I enjoy flogging dead horses or anything.