How can I have it all without doing it all?

[ButterflyWitch]

Like many others I feel a bit conned with all the feminist messages I got growing up. Yes I got a higher education (PhD), a good job (I'm the breadwinner) married a good guy who's happy (theoretically) to treat me as an equal, had my 2 kids etc but 'having it all' has mean that I've ended up doing it all and I'm knackered!
I'm at a point in my career - recently returned from mat leave - and my company is undergoing a huge restructure. It's an opportunity for me to get a new job and potentially a more senior job (think senior manager to associate director). I'm more than qualified for it - and my feminist balls are quite happy to go for it - but in practice how can I manage a more demanding job when I'm barely managing as it is juggling the kids and the house and all the 'wife work' that automatically falls to me.
I would LOVE to go for a more senior job but I just can't see how I could manage at home? I guess the extra pay could pay for some help (cleaner etc) and DH could maybe drop some time at work if my salary increase would cover it?
I hate how these aren't considerations a man has to take.... :-(
I should add that atm I'm ft but over 4 days (8-6), luckily work from home with some occasional travel - but I still do the majority of school/childcare drop offs and pick ups. A more senior job would mean I would probably have to do more travel, back to 5d/week etc.

I just don't see how it's possible? Or do I suck it up for next few years and then spread my wings when kids are older??

The person at home is 'er indoors'
men are out doing manly macho high status things

Jesus Christ this is so depressing.

You weren't conned by feminists but by your partner
^ This 100%

Men aren't incapable of coping, they can't just not do it, it isn't 'wife-work'.

How do people think gay couples or single men or single fathers cope? Stop falling for the bullshit that he just doesn't 'notice' the washing or just can't 'remember' his mother birthday etc etc.

Expect more of him and think better of yourselves.

Hi
If you have the capability to take a more senior job then I would advise you to take it.
Then you can sort out DH and outsource other tasks.
You never know what the future holds. I lost my husband to cancer when my daughter was 6 and suddenly everything became my responsibility. Having a senior role and being paid well helped enormously with being flexible in my work hours and paying for help.
Now 10 years on, and it wasn't all plain sailing but she has a good female role model, I have a great career, we're happy and we don't care if the house gets dusty and a bit untidy. We just invite someone round and then it's gets cleaned.
So I'd say take the promotion. Don't sit and watch someone else do it, when you know you can do it.
Best of luck x

In order for women to get a better deal men will have to make concessions and they don't want to

OP sounds like this is what is happening - so he hasn't even taking up a working from home option to do some drop offs and pick ups? That he'd agreed to? He doesn't seem to care about you much and the stress you're under from the sound of it.

"He had the option of flexible working but chooses not to. He could wfm regularly and reduce his commute but chooses not to. He was meant to have applied for flexible working to cover drop-off and pick ups on Friday and hasn’t."

Why? Has he offered any explanation for not doing any of these easy steps? He doesn't even have the excuse of being the higher earner and feeling that he needs to protect his job from signs of having domestic responsibilities.

He could wfm regularly and reduce his commute but chooses not to. He was meant to have applied for flexible working to cover drop-off and pick ups on Friday and hasn’t.

He doesn’t want to. He doesn’t value the work you do, either domestically or out of the home. That’s hard to hear, but look at actions, not intentions.

I’ve known several men who outright state they work late to avoid all that. They will magically get home at tea time, then insist on a sit down because they’re tired. The kind of men who say they’re ‘babysitting’ when they’re looking after their own kids.

What does he bring to the table here? How does he make your life easier or better or happier?

Oh wow, the more you write about your partner the worse he sounds. So you earn double, and still you are the one who needs to figure it all out, and he happily does whatever the fuck he wants. Oh, and he can't cope with children - well, it's about time he learns, just like you did.

Can you imagine if the genders were reversed? Husband earning double and having better career perspectives? Would that husband even consider not taking this promotion?

My electrician was working on a list of jobs for me, I pay a day rate plus VAT - he is owner of small company with a couple of employees so basically self employed and able to be flexible with his hours. Time approached 6pm and I said I was happy for my job to be finished the following day, I commented that it was probably bed & bath time for his little ones and happy for him to shoot off if he wanted to. Reply was NO there is too much going on at home , I would rather miss the traffic and get home when the kids are in bed!

Several years ago I went into the office at lunchtime where I noticed several (self employed) males, playing cards in their lunch hour .I noticed someone who usually took Wednesday off , innocently I asked isn't today your day off? to which said male ( Father of 5 under 9) commented yes but don't tell the missus she thinks I am working, he could face being at home and being roped in to looking after his own children.

Sorry "could not face "

Alwayscheerful - That's extremely sad and those men are fooling themselves if they think their children won't notice at some point and their relationships suffer for it.

This whole topic is sensitive for me because I have a high-flying high-earning father who always always put work above his children and not because he was economically forced to, but because he chose to. He paid for us and did a bit of fun stuff with us on the weekends occasionally, but he was only really a parent to us in a biological sense. He loves us but the fact that he actively avoided taking any part in our day-to-day lives has seriously affected my respect for him and we are not particularly close. His unavailability and lack of involvement in the 'boring' bits of child-raising meant that I craved his attention and worshipped him when I was a young child, so I think he thought it was all OK.

I always swore that my children would not have a father like I had.

God this is another depressing thread (sorry OP not directed at you) like the Beryl thread. Men going into work when they don't have to to avoid their kids. Nice.

What I would say OP is - you mention in your opening post I'm barely managing as it is juggling the kids and the house and all the 'wife work' really think about how much you can physically, emotionally cope with whilst looking VERY realistically at what your H will do. It sounds to me like he just won't step up - I mean who on earth trades a commute for more time at home?

I developed a chronic health condition as a result of overwork (before I had kids, I was very stupid) and nothing replaces good health. Your kids will be little for a limited period of time, if you ruin your health by running yourself into the ground now, you won't be able to make the most of your career progression later on.

Things like bereavement can and do happen, but good insurance can help with that. You need to risk assess. Will you do a good job in this new job if H is at home expected to take up the slack and he doesn't? Be realistic. If he won't step up domestically you'll need a nanny or something similar (plus cleaner) in order to make it work. That will help with setting your salary expectations.

I know a number of women who are doing it all in high profile jobs, whose incomes aren't quite enough for a nanny. They uniformly look like shit and I do wonder how long until one of them keels over and doesn't get up. I also know women in comparable jobs who have nannies. They look fine.

Oh, and my chronic health condition came about partly because I had a "i'll do it, this will be fine and just magically work out" approach to getting my work choices and life choices to match up.

I was young and thought my body could take anything I threw at it in terms of hours and horrendous commutes. I'm much more realistic now I have kids.

You are better than him.
You earn more, you do more at home and you are more capable.

Oh woah woah woah.

My husband earns more than me because jointly we decided that I would work part time - well actually I wanted to work part time because I wanted more time with the children and DH works FT plus overtime to make up the financial short fall.

That doesn't make him better than me.

I agree, take the more senior role, you cannot predict the future but life certainly becomes easier as children get older.
It seems unlikely there is cash for a nanny but something has to give -refer back to some of the lists on the thread and start with the less expensive help on the list.

Food shop online and have it delivered in a Monday, meal plan for 4/5 nights and use up odds and ends In fridge freezer and cupboards at the weekend when you have more time and consider batch cooking.

Have your ironing collected and delivered, tumble dry & fold children's clothes , buy non iron shirts. But packs of identical socks so they don't need pairing. If you use babysitters find a nature one who will iron while she sits, you are probably too exhausted to go out,

Lower your standards if there is no cash for a cleaner, bulk buy and write birthday cards for the whole year. Agree with friends & relatives to stop presents or just give cash. Go away for Christmas and just don't do it.

Find a way to reduce your to do list. Be kind to yourself.

Weetabix
It's not the earning power that makes her better, it's the multitasking!

Two nights a week, DH finishes early and I come home late. The housework and homework is done, dinner is usually on the table. It's amazing. I can see how men get into the trap of thinking they will just get home for that part of the day.

The 'trap' I think we fail to talk about because nobody is to blame and it cannot easily be solved, is that I want to spend time with my children as well as advancing in a career. For this reason I leave work earlier the three other days a week and this is not because my husband doesn't pull his wait or the patriarchy is holding me back. I want to be there with them. I really do not do much housework and I would like to do even less, but sacrificing time with my children is a difficult sacrifice and one I can't yet balance with how I want my career to progress. When I work more and away from home, as I do at certain times of the year, I enjoy it but I also feel my children suffer. Why do we always neglect to talk about this part? Because it's too hard and there are no easy answers, I fear.

This reminds me of the Harvard Business School study that found that women are held back, not by work or having children, but by their partners.

Article here but key quote is "When they graduated, more than half of male HBS grads said they expected their careers would take precedence over their partners’. Only 7 percent of Gen X women and 3 percent of baby boomer women said they expected their careers to take precedence. Here’s what they did expect: The majority of women said they assumed they would have egalitarian marriages in which both spouses’ careers were taken equally seriously. "

pencils I agree it’s not talked about. Success is seen as success within the patriarchal structure only - so only the place on the career ladder matters. Whereas what we should be looking for is a different structure - one where women are not structurally disadvantaged (read that facilitated men thread, it’s genuinely one of the best I’ve read on here) because they’re expected to support men AND work AND do childcare AND household admin.

Getting out of that patriarchal structure would mean success looked all sorts of different ways - each family unit picking what suits them without the pressures imposed by The salaryman type stuff. Success would be success at work, and successfully creating an equitable family unit.

Right now women are expected to do it all, not have it all. Men expect to be facilitated and that’s why women fall behind at work. And so many men don’t see it. They think ‘we’ll id love to promote more women but there aren’t any coming through.’ They think there’s no sexism because they think sexism at work is mad men type slapping the secretary’s bum, and they don’t consider for a moment that their wife, who has dropped down to three days a week so he doesn’t need to dovthe school run, is supporting his career.

OP, for a second, imagine you’re on your own, what would you do? Would you take the job? Or would you prefer to chill at home more?

At the moment, you are thinking and acting for all of them. The thing is: your H isn’t thinking of anybody but himself. The kids don’t know any different.

What is important to you? What do you want to do? Forget about the rest, just look inside for a moment and decide what’s important. Not what’s expected of you, not what you have to do, what do you think should happen.

Childcare, pick up, ferrying, washing, bedtime etc should be done 50-50. It would allow both of you to work and function.
Housework, shopping should be 50-50.
As someone said upthread, don’t underestimate the amount of work your H generates for you. I was married for 20 years, the minute we split up, ine of a sudden I had so much more time on my hands! I have never ever in 20 years with him just came home, grabbed a shower, picked up my book and read for 20-30 minutes before very calmly putting something from the freezer in the oven, ate, put the dishwasher on and continued with my book. That simply has never happened. Because I had to rush home because he wanted to go out/didn’t ‘get the chance’ to do any shopping in, so I had to do it, was too tired to put a wash on or bung a load on. Because I had to listen to his ramblings, because I had to be ready by a certain time in the evening when he wanted to put the telly on and relax, etc.

Now, yes, my DD is older and self sufficient. I don’t commute anymore, because I did what I have been asking him to do for years: you work part time, I work full time, can we please move closer to my work? I went on and did it and it’s bliss!
I don’t have to chase his lazy arse anymore, and that freed up HOURS of my life.

don’t underestimate the amount of work your H generates for you. I was married for 20 years, the minute we split up, ine of a sudden I had so much more time on my hands
Ain't that the truth

"He had the option of flexible working but chooses not to. He could wfm regularly and reduce his commute but chooses not to. He was meant to have applied for flexible working to cover drop-off and pick ups on Friday and hasn’t. I’m grtting annoyed..."
I'm seeing a lot of CHOOSING on his part, each and every one reducing your ability to make choices. I'm glad to see that you're getting annoyed, but I really think that what you need to do is get angry. Angry at being played for a fool, angry at the sheer disrespect your husband has for you. And angry enough to propel you through the changes you now acknowledge need to be made.

but in practice how can I manage a more demanding job when I'm barely managing as it is juggling the kids and the house and all the 'wife work' that automatically falls to me

You need to sort out your attitude to "wife work". It doesn't fall automatically to you. You are choosing to do it. Other than breast- feeding nothing in running a home or bringing up children falls automatically on one person.

The 'trap' I think we fail to talk about because nobody is to blame and it cannot easily be solved, is that I want to spend time with my children as well as advancing in a career

Yes, until unpaid work is valued as much as paid work then this is going to be an element that gets brushed under the carpet. And it's important for women AND men. Men (most of the ones I've met anyway) do actually want to spend time with their kids too. All too often they've just never actually seen the amount of work that lies behind the nice time with the kids. They've never had the opportunity. And shared parental leave has not been around for long - when we had DD1 DH couldn't take shared parental leave, so a lot of families will still be stuck with the legacy of that. I don't think it's enough to just have the option of shared parental leave, it has to be advantageous to take it, otherwise men who take it up may continue to be disadvantaged in the workplace. A total change in the way employers view parents, not just women, is required.

A bit off topic for the OP but important for her too. How important to her is time with the kids because if her H's attitude doesn't change then the new job will likely mean less time with them.

I have a high powered job and two children. I just don’t have a partner. And judging by this thread I’m doing better than many.

It is absolutely exhausting and I still spend £1500 pm on childcare despite them both being in full time school (one secondary, one towards the end of primary). But single parenthood meant I targeted a well paying field and role really early on. And that’s been well worth doing and I would encourage you to do the same - go for the bigger job, make it happen. For years you make virtually nothing due to childcare and it takes a toll emotionally. But it’s so worth it - this is what I got an education for and it’s who I am. I have financial independence and I also get the life with my children that I want. We are very close, they see me as a whole person. Oh and I don’t have to resent the supposedly supportive husband who can’t manage his own children.

It's hard to see how unpaid work will ever be valued in the way that paid work is
because the 'signal' that tells you what something is worth it's how much renumeration it is afforded
This is reinforced by the fact that money gives you power
if you don't have money you don't have power
If you don't get paid it means you're not worth anything

To be clear I'm not saying that unpaid work has no value, quite the opposite it is the unpaid work which holds everything together, but giving someone a wage in return for work frames that work as something which is important
Work that is unpaid becomes invisible... it is out of the picture