Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

743 replies

spannablue · 05/11/2018 22:29

Here: alicenuttallbooks.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/why-i-am-a-trans-inclusive-feminist/

Enjoy!

OP posts:
MIdgebabe · 09/11/2018 16:57

THE exceptions are not listed afaik. Any single sex space can be refused to a gra holder if the reason is proportionate. Likelihood to commit rape sounds more than proportionate to me. Lack of case law unfortunatly.

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 09/11/2018 17:07

There are some exceptions listed explicitly, and yes there is a 'proportionate' argument but that doesn't seem to be applied. From PSI 17/2016 (the guidance for prisons):

6.1 Prison Rule 12(1) provides that “Women prisoners shall normally be kept separate from male prisoners”. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, as determined by any type of Transgender Case Board expressly convened for the purpose of determining the most appropriate location, prisoners must be located according to their legal gender.

6.2 Women offenders who present a high risk of harm to other women are managed safely in the female estate. Transgender women who pose similar risks should be managed in a similar way in the female estate. In a judicial review of September 2009 (R (on the application of AB) v Secretary of State for Justice [2009] EWHC 2220 (Admin)) the judge held that a male to female transsexual prisoner with a GRC had to be transferred to the female estate even though one of her index offences was attempted rape of a woman.

6.3 There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 17:22

Which prison estate you are housed in isn't one of those exceptions.

Agreed, but segregation is on the basis of sex not gender.

Gender is neither a protected characteristic nor an exception to the equalities act.

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 17:24

This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

What a strange coincidence!

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 09/11/2018 17:36

Merry, I'm not arguing that these things are right, just that this is how the prisons currently operate. They treat a transwoman with a GRC exactly the same as a woman. In terms of 'exceptionally high risk', then that could also apply to natal women, who would have to be housed in the male estate.

If you don't have a GRC but identify as the opposite gender to your sex then they have a meeting to review, at which you are supposed to show evidence of having lived in that gender. Quite how that would work in the context of self-id I do not know. (Well I do. It wouldn't.)

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 17:37

This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate

According to this transfer cannot have anything nothing to do with the prisoner being trans and can only be because of lack of suitable accommodation.

I wonder how many women are in the male estate for this reason.

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 17:39

Sorry, extra ‘nothing’ in that last post.

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 09/11/2018 17:46

I wonder how many women are in the male estate for this reason.
Even more pertinently, even if they said how many there were I don't think they would say how many were trans.

Ereshkigal · 09/11/2018 17:49

As far as I know there are none. Either women or MTFs with GRCs.

merrymouse · 09/11/2018 18:14

Apparently 7 in 10 women in prison are sent to serve sentences of under 6 months.

84% have committed non violent crimes.

How can you make a case that a comparable woman would be in a men's prison if there are no comparable women?

Vixxxy · 09/11/2018 18:24

Gender defined, not mixed sex.

Gender defined IS mixed sex!

'Gender identity' is totally subjective, anyone can claim anything. Surely it makes more sense to segregate by actual sex.

Also, if we do it by 'gender' I cannot access any formally single sex areas at all, because I have no 'gender identity', and a lot of people are in the same boat Hmm

MIdgebabe · 09/11/2018 18:38

Surelybseparation by gender is illegal as gender isn’t a protected characteristic

QuentinWinters · 09/11/2018 18:54

Late to this but this You could say that about anything though. Who is going to have more interest in your body if you’re naked? A gay man or a lesbian? But we don’t segregate based on orientation for our own ‘dignity’ is homophobic.
You are assuming that it is acceptable/common for people to ogle naked bodies of strangers they might think look attractive. That assumption is based on the behaviour of some, not all, men.

Most people don't behave like that. I've never been ogled by a lesbian and I've never met anyone else who has.

It is homophobic to suggest lesbians behave like sexually predatory men

Earlywalker · 10/11/2018 07:41

Where did I say lesbians behave like predatory men? Or that they ogle you? I said someone who fancies woman will have more interest in a woman’s body than someone who is attracted to men.

You’re all very clear to point out when you call transwoman men that it is fact and not transphobic, but very happy to point out mine as homophobic. More double standards.

Also worth pointed out, while men are obviously the sex that behaves worse in terms of sexual assault and violance, it is also well documented that woman are less likely to get convicted or sentenced for a shorter time than men for the same crimes.
Statistics of trans prisoners are also less likely to show smaller crimes such as shoplifting etc and also the statistics list for transgender people, not just transwomen. We are not sure if transmen are convicted of these crimes as it’s also been documented that crime rates of transmen is higher than that of biological woman.
I’m not here to tell you everyone is innocent, just throwing another opinion into it.

SophoclesTheFox · 10/11/2018 07:59

I said someone who fancies woman will have more interest in a woman’s body than someone who is attracted to men

While that's true, it's a really odd proposal to drop into a debate about segregating changing facilities, because that logic would tell us that gay men should be in the ladies changing room, and lesbians should be in the men's. So that won't work.

I don't care what someone's sexual orientation is in the changing room. I only care that we change together because we have the same bodies. I don't get changed in front of my dad, my brother or my gay best friend, none of whom are interested in my body. But I do get changed in front of my lesbian friends, my sister and my mum. It's not about who an individual might find sexually attractive - you must know that?

Datun · 10/11/2018 08:14

it is also well documented that woman are less likely to get convicted or sentenced for a shorter time than men for the same crimes.

Can you link to that?

Earlywalker · 10/11/2018 08:15

Which was exactly my point, that we dont/wouldn’t segregate based on orientation - not that we would/should. If people actually read in context. Someone being a transwoman doesn’t mean that they are ogling you, just because they were born male and attracted to woman.

I’m also yet to find a changing room that isn’t either fully individual cubicals or open plan with private changing rooms available within it. So no one is forcing you to undress in front of a man.

FloralBunting · 10/11/2018 08:20

The suggestion is not that we segregate according to orientation, it is that we continue to have Sex segregated spaces. I don't care if the male bodied person in question is attracted to men, women or Porsches, the reason he is not supposed to be there is because he has a male body. No need to check for sexuality, motive, gender feelings etc.

Have a male body? You don't belong in the places exclysively for female bodies.

It's exactly as complicated as that.

SophoclesTheFox · 10/11/2018 08:22

If people actually read in context

Yes, they should. As I said:

I only care that we change together because we have the same bodies - a transwoman does not have the same body as me. So I don't want to change with them.

I go to three gyms regularly. All open plan, no cubicles.

no one is forcing you to undress in front of a man.

I not only want to not undress in front of a man, I also don't want a man undressing in front of me. I decline to support the drive to open up womens facilities to male bodies. Most women do. My 12 year old niece and my 78 year old mother do not want to get changed with males. Why do you want to compel my 12 year old niece to get comfortable with seeing penises in women's spaces?

Datun · 10/11/2018 08:27

Someone being a transwoman doesn’t mean that they are ogling you, just because they were born male and attracted to woman.

If they insist on using female facilities, they are already demonstrating their lack of respect for women's boundaries.

If they have gender dysphoria, they are craving a female body - to the point of distress.

Neither scenario has any place being validated by women, especially when they are disrobing.

People saying but what about cubicles, what if they mind their own business, etc, sound desperate to force women to comply.

LemonJello · 10/11/2018 08:31

If they have gender dysphoria, they are craving a female body - to the point of distress.

This is exactly why I’d actually be more comfortable having a man do my smear test, than a transwoman.

Earlywalker · 10/11/2018 08:31

@datun - this link was the first on google (paper inside article) m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_1874742

@sophicles every gym I’ve been too has at least one private door part. Whilst I fully agree that a self IDing man should not be in a ladies changing room. I believe someone holding a GRC should be allowed in, and I’ve not heard of any cases of a transwoman exposing themselves to a changing rooms when they still have Male anatomy, they do not want to be seen as a man - unless that’s not clear yet.
Would you be happy with a fully transitioned transwoman being in your facilities? Or should she go in the men’s?

MIdgebabe · 10/11/2018 08:32

Early, you imply that you think it is wrong to imply that’s transwomen are men. Do you think they are women? Why?

PerverseConverse · 10/11/2018 08:34

What about Jess Bradley? Quite happy to flash his dick despite claiming to be a woman.

Earlywalker · 10/11/2018 08:37

I don’t think it’s wrong to think transwoman are men biologically, I think the majority of the population understand that they are (even full trans supporters)

However I think once they have become a transwoman, it is not fair to consistently refer to them as men. I understand not referring to them as woman exclusively, but to continue calling them men just seems like deliberately dismissing their identity.
My best friend is a transman, I can’t imagine why anyone would refer to him as a woman constantly, it minimises completely his decades long battle with gender dysphoria where he self harmed his genitals, attempted suicide and was cut off from his family. It was not a parade or a joke - it was and is real for him. It’s just disrespectful imo.