Anger as gender neutral toilets introduced at primary school without parents knowing

[MrsSnippyPants]

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/17197253.anger-as-gender-neutral-toilets-introduced-at-primary-school-without-parents-knowing/?ref=twtrec

I would be furious about this. Girls often start their periods at primary school and can take a while to get the hang of dealing with them. They absolutely need somewhere private to wash hands etc.
I thought single sex toilet provision was compulsory from age 8?

Just commenting on a few points raised in this thread:

The toilets in question have the sinks outside the cubicles not in.

Even if privacy / dignity / safety were not an issue (and it is and will be in the foreseeable future) until men stop pissing on the seats, and leaving the door open while they do so, mixed sex toilets are a no go.

It is perfectly ok for boundaries to be set,.and for girls to learn that it is ok to say no to boys. Not everything has to be shared. And as a class, males are a danger to females, that also is not going to be changing any time soon.

Also, I'm not sure that teaching girls to expect to share spaces like toilets with males is a particular good idea.

Single sex toilets are important for young children. Many arrive in reception without being fully toilet trained. Often in my three children's primary school the boys would do something to the toilets such as turning on the taps and letting them overflow or filling up the toilets with paper. And this was a naice school in a middle class area. I can't see it working.

I wonder what direction the Relationships and Sex discussion will take?

I wonder what direction the Relationships and Sex discussion will take?

I'm sure I sure something on Twitter about teaching "most girls have a vagina, but some have a penis". I hope I am misremembering / it was fake news.

I'm sure I sure something on Twitter about teaching "most girls have a vagina, but some have a penis". I hope I am misremembering / it was fake news.

relevent thread re BISH school resources and workshops:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3357713-BISH-proudly-supported-by

Why do some people keep saying it’s all ok if the toilets are a floor to ceiling enclosed space? It not! Think of how many children with medical needs who could collapse whilst in those spaces and no one would know. Think about if a boy traps a girl into that room, who will see and help?

Would this approach have any traction in a private school?

My son hates using the toilets at school because of the mess other boys leave them in.

He would also hate mixed sex toilets as it would leave him very vulnerable to false accusations.

My daughter suffered from mennohagia (sp) which was embarrassing enough. At one point she was not allowed to go to the toilet unaccompanied due to the number of times she was found passed out in the loo.

"A man who secretly filmed women undressing, showering and going to the toilet at a university is due to be sentenced.
Luke Mallaband, 22, placed recording equipment at locations around the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, including at student accommodation and within the library toilets.

Mallaband, formerly of Norwich and now of Yew Tree Road, Walsall, admitted six voyeurism offences at an earlier hearing at Norwich Magistrates’ Court.

At last month’s hearing Norwich Magistrates’ Court heard the filming of students at the UEA, and other locations, had been “going on for a number of years”.

Josephine Jones, prosecuting, said a woman using a gender neutral toilet in the UEA library noticed a “white plastic bag on the floor which appeared to have a hole in one corner”.

She had noticed the bag a few days before and opened it to discover a box which also had a hole in it.

“Inside the box she found an iPhone 6 which was recording.” (continues)
www.edp24.co.uk/news/man-who-secretly-filmed-female-students-in-toilets-at-university-of-east-anglia-in-norwich-to-be-sentenced-today-1-4790075

My son has never used the toilets in his primary, secondary or sixth form. He just doesn't do it for reasons similar to your son Alexander.

I’m still wondering WTAF Stonewall think they’re doing meddling with sex based provision in the first place? They are an LGBT org, and LGB, which barely gets a mention now apart from telling us to stfu, has fuck all to do with single sex provision, and provision for T has fuck all to do with single sex provisions for anybody else either. It’s like the Paralympic committee dictating to the IOC what their rules should be. Sex based provision has absolutely, entirely fuck all to do with an LGBT org.

Not equating LGBT with disability btw. FYI I am both lesbian and disabled. just pointing out Stonewall meddling in things that they have no business interfering with.

From the article:

Barrow Hall believes passionately in equality of opportunity and ‘embracing difference’ in all individuals. We therefore believe children should be able to access all facilities equally and we should not segregate pupils unnecessarily;

However, Barrow Hall does not seem to be aware that all people do not access toilets equally. Girls have periods and accessible toilets should not just be a spare toilet for everyone to use. Apparently some differences are more important than others.

If girls are unable to go to the loo because of their sex this is discrimination on the basis of the protected characteristic of sex - but according to school policy that protected characteristic doesn't exist - it has now been replaced by 'sex including issues of transgender' which is completely meaningless.

You can argue the toss about whether girls have been excluded, but you can't even have the argument if you can't recognise sex.

It should be possible to provide unisex toilets in addition to single sex toilets, and do a proper assessment of need, based on impartial advice. Instead the school have apparently disengaged their brains and swallowed whole everything Stonewall has told them, whether or not it is good or accurate advice.

I’m still wondering WTAF Stonewall think they’re doing meddling with sex based provision in the first place?

Stonewall have been advising schools for some time:
www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/an_introduction_to_supporting_lgbt_young_people_-_a_guide_for_schools_2015.pdf

Provide training, resources, awards etc: www.stonewall.org.uk/our-work/education-resources

Primary school aged boys are avoiding using the toilets for fear of being falsely accused of sex crimes by girls?

Did I read that right?

Ds is secondary age.

Times Kelli Neale
June 26 2018,

'Gender‑neutral toilets: My daughter was called selfish for wanting girls‑only loos at school'
(extract)
Pressure has been steadily growing over the past few years for single-sex toilets and changing rooms to be banned nationwide. Mental health is a driving force behind this movement — removing the black-and-white nature of gender segregation would help those who are gender-fluid, gender-querying or don’t identify with any gender at all.

However, yesterday ministers announced that they had “no intention” of changing laws that allow for single-sex toilets and changing rooms. And this means that whether a shop or cinema has unisex or single-sex facilities remains at its discretion.

For me this story has a particular, personal resonance. Last September my daughter came home from her co-ed school crying. “Oh no,” she said. “They’ve made the toilets unisex.”

“What, all of them?”

“Yes.”

“Are you sure?”

Cue eye-roll, then: “Of course I’m sure.”

“But why?” I asked.

She told me that it was to cater for transgender or transitioning children. And rather than just make a couple of toilets unisex (I had no idea how many transgender pupils there were in her school), the school changed the lot. My daughter told me that other girls in the school felt equally outraged and I wasn’t surprised. I dislike unisex toilets even as an adult, but imagine being a teenage girl having to open a sanitary towel or tampon with a boy in the cubicle next door. No, no and no. Girls need privacy.

I researched online. I read that the Barbican in London had scrapped plans for gender-neutral toilets after visitor protests. And I learnt that there’s been a rise in youth referrals to gender identity clinics: the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation in London apparently saw more than 2,000 teenagers last year compared with 100 eight years ago — but statistically that’s probably less than 0.1 per cent of the population.

I’m not a complainer, but after 48 hours of stewing I sent an email to the head teacher and the head of my daughter’s year. To the school’s credit, before the day was out I received a phone call from a teacher (although not the head) and a calm-ish discussion ensued. I was told that it’s a changing world and we need to be gender-neutral to help gender-confused pupils. “Fine,” I said, “but there must be a way to do it that doesn’t involve upsetting the entire female population of the school.”

I’ve a son who goes to a different co-ed school, with a transgender pupil in his year. His school doesn’t have mixed WCs. Instead there are a couple of single disabled toilets that can be used by everyone — much more sensible.

Talking of boys, I asked my daughter how her male counterparts felt about the new loos. “They’re pervs,” she joked. “They’re delighted. They’ll probably drill holes in the walls.”

My son (a non-perv) agreed that mixed toilets wouldn’t bother him either, but many of the girls shared my daughter’s views, as, it turns out, do most of my female friends. One suggested that mixed toilets could even promote promiscuity among older children. Call me old-fashioned, but the notion of not having personal space when you’re going through puberty is nonsensical whatever your gender. Where should we draw the line?

The weeks passed and my daughter — along with others who were unhappy with the new loos — kept complaining, but their complaints fell on deaf ears. They were told to put up and shut up and think of others. As a parent, this felt wrong. Did only the transgender voice matter? What about my daughter’s voice? Shouldn’t both be listened to?

My daughter saw red. She started a petition for boys, girls and gender-neutrals to sign. Hundreds did. She insisted that a school council meeting be held and unisex toilets discussed. They were. And you know what? Eventually hers and other unhappy voices were listened to. And against the odds the toilets were quietly changed back to how they had been, with a smaller provision of unisex toilets kept for those who choose to use them." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/genderneutral-toilets-my-daughter-was-called-selfish-for-wanting-girlsonly-loos-at-school-cwth60b2c

My dd has a similar set up to this in her secondary school, though they are fully open and the sinks line the corridor. They are individually then labeled boy or girl. I think there are separate blocks in the dining hall.

It is a very diverse school and approximately 30% of pupils don't have English as their first language.

Probably a slightly better set up than the ones in the article seem but I am not sure this is that unusual especially in a newer built building.

But he goesto school in a middle school area so the middle school is ages 8-13

Yes, but it’s like Birdseye advising Tesco on their tinned and packet goods section. The two things are mutually exclusive, and where they meet a workable solution needs to be found, eg placing the sachets of parsley sauce in an easily accessible place on a shelf above the freezer with the fish in it. I’m sure Birdseye wouldn’t insist on all the parsley sauce, and the tartar sauce and the bottles of vinegar being placed inside the freezer with the fish.

My dd has a similar set up to this in her secondary school, though they are fully open and the sinks line the corridor.

This is really concerning.

Girls need privacy between toilets and sinks.

A lot of people on here have very nasty views on boys - we are talking about young primary aged children and yet they are being likened to violent sex pests who like to piss all over the place and spy on vulnerable girls.
Why is everyone only upset about the loss of privacy for girls, boys are losing their single sex toilets as well. Are we saying that boys won't be embarrassed at having to share toilets with girls? That boys don't need require the same right to privacy?
Whenever I read transgender threads it amazes me how so many people have such negative views towards men but the fact that is now being applied to 8, 9, 10 year old boys leaves me baffled

The worst thing about this is that it is totally unnecessary! All you need, along with separate boys' and girls' toilets, is an additional couple of single toilets with hand basins inside and a picture of a toilet on the outside. Diversity means providing for diverse needs. It's SO stupid to remove a valued provision for one set of people (ie single-sex loos) in order to provide something for another group of people. I don't like the labelling of disabled toilets, either. Just have a couple of loos that are fully equipped for any sort of person.

I remember when I was in secondary school and the boys would always try to spy in the girls changing room. There was a frosted-glass window in the changing rooms that opened out into the yard. The boys would take turns in lifting each other up to peek inside.

I guess this generations' kids will find peeking much easier.

It is weird, this shift, when did it begin ? Most girls in my class at school in the early 80s had short hair. We all wore trousers far more than dresses out of school. Drainpipe jeans and oversized jumpers, with the boys looking much the same. As an older teenager most of the boys I knew wore makeup to go clubbing, I was part of an arty crowd, and although there were a few raised eyebrows from older people there wasn’t much else.
My husband is eight years younger than me, his friends at school wore similar clothes to my lot, the girls mainly had short hair, and both sexes wore jeans, big jumpers, men’s overcoats.

The last ten or fifteen years seem to have been far more pink/blue. No girls in my dds school have very short hair. My dd has one friend with a longish bob, and another with a chin length bob, all the rest have long hair. Most of the girls are wearing makeup to school at 13 or so, foundation, highlighter, contouring stuff, eyebrow stuff etc. They have that slightly plastic look that lots of shimmery foundation gives. They all do that ghastly pouty thing to take selfies. At 13 I was bare faced and climbing trees, mostly mucking about outside with my best friend who had a pony. We might take photo booth pics of us together, pulling silly faces, there was no pressure on us to look a certain way. We were left to be children. 

My daughters are growing up in a very rural area, kids here are still less sophisticated than in cities, but the internet means that they have much more mass influence than they would have done a generation ago.
Teenagers with no sense yet of who they are, are being told they have to validate a boy’s “identity”. The girls in dds class all say how terrible it must be to be “born in the wrong body”, I’ve heard parents say that they knew nothing about transgender issues until they were “educated “ by their children. Clearly there is huge pressure on children to conform to gender norms and there is also huge pressure on children to accept the transactivist narrative on children. I find this sinister. There seems to be this push to get this agenda entrenched in children so that they don’t question it, so that girls grow up with no sense of a space that is theirs alone.

It does happen, tried20names.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/4091507/Children-sexually-assaulted-by-classmates.html

Why is everyone only upset about the loss of privacy for girls, boys are losing their single sex toilets as well.

Have you read the thread? There are plenty of comments about how this is bad for boys as well. From loss of privacy to fear of being falsely accused of assault. Single sex is better for everyone.

Erm no

Focus is on menstruation generally.

there have also been two posters who say their sons won't use toilets at school as they believe the girls are likely to falsely accuse them of sex offences so that probably fits better with your worldview.