Anger as gender neutral toilets introduced at primary school without parents knowing

[MrsSnippyPants]

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/17197253.anger-as-gender-neutral-toilets-introduced-at-primary-school-without-parents-knowing/?ref=twtrec

I would be furious about this. Girls often start their periods at primary school and can take a while to get the hang of dealing with them. They absolutely need somewhere private to wash hands etc.
I thought single sex toilet provision was compulsory from age 8?

We don't have separate toilets at home so I don't see why it is an issue at school

But presumably you have a lock on your front door.

Even if you really don’t care, it’s obvious that many people don’t like mixed sex toilets and the reasons have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anybody else’s gender identity. Isn’t it reasonable to listen to their concerns?

If we start doing in public life what we do at home we are going to have quite a few issues.

Except that they are illegal for children over 8 years of age

News to me, our primary school has mixed toilets. The PTA even paid to have them jazzed up when they were refurbished a few years ago. I really don't see what the issue is with primary school children sharing loos.

So all the toilet seats will be covered in piss now not just the boys? Not that they care, they don't have to sit on them! No girls will use them, the boys toilets usually stink by 10.00 am so this will just give them more acreage for spraying

Problem with mixed sex toilets in primary schools is keeping cubicles open enough to enable children to be monitored by teachers, but private enough that children (particularly children who may have started puberty) are happy to use them.

Mixed sex toilets for adults are supposed to include a sink and have a full door.

A reminder of Stonewall's lobbying to remove sex
James Kirkup details:

Some facts about the events that preceded the Government statement here that the coming consultation on the Gender Recognition Act will be narrowly drawn and not affect the Equality Act’s single sex exemptions.

I offer these facts because some are claiming “there was never any question of removing/amending EA exceptions.” Those claims are either mistaken or dishonest.
August 2015
Stonewall submission to the Women & Equalities Select Committee says MPs should amend the EA to
“remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces”

Jan 2016
Women & Equalities Committee says EA should be amended so that

“occupational requirements provision and / or the single-sex / separate services provision shall not apply”.

July 2016
Govt response to W&E Committee says: “we agree with the principle of this recommendation” on EA exemptions and seeks evidence for “future policy discussions”

July 2017
Govt promises GRA reform “ as part of a broad consultation of the legal system that underpins gender transition.”

July 2017
Stonewall commits to “advocate for the removal” of EA provisions allowing sex-based discrimination.

June 2018
Govt says:

“We are clear that we have no intention of amending the Equality Act 2010, the legislation that allows for single sex spaces.”

In sum: MPs and others told govt to amend/remove Equality Act single-sex exemptions. Govt considered doing so. Then govt ruled it out. / ends"
see link for documents cited
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1004635839480164352.html

It would be interesting to know if the school and its LA's Diversity and Inclusion policies are correctly quoting the Equality Act 2010. Many are incorrect and do not list sex and gender reassignment as 2 of the specific 9 protected characteristics.

At home you're sharing with family members.

Females have specific needs - menstruation, risk of abuse, pregnancy, prolapse, greater risk of urinary tract infection, anxiety related to sex abuse and being undressed near males etc. No female should automatically be expected to share their intimate spaces with a male and girls shouldn't be brought up to expect it.

If all men were respectful, kind fluffy bunnies, then there wouldn't be an issue, but they're not and that's an issue they've created for themselves and for which they should collectively take responsibility for. And that includes the men who get off on being in female spaces.

Govt doc: Gender separation in mixed schools
Non-statutory guidance
June 2018

"Negligible and exceptional separation
12.Apart from the statutory exceptions, there may be occasions where a mixed school can lawfully separate boys and girls if the separation can be considered negligible in its effect on the ability of pupils of both sexes to mix, socialise or learn from and with each other. Schools will have to consider any such sex separation on a case-by-case basis and should regularly evaluate whether the separation could be said to give rise to any detriment to any pupil of either sex.

13.It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010. With regards to boarding accommodation, Schedule 23 of the Equality Act 2010 allows for separation by sex providing the same standard of accommodation is provided for both boys and
girls"

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf

It does say this in the article:

The facilities are designed to be safe for gender neutral provision (i.e. they have floor to ceiling doors and panels and can be locked from the inside, washing and drinking water facilities are in open areas clearly visible from the corridor and classrooms). In addition, there are single accessible toilets in the KS2 block which pupils have access to;

(I assume separate washing facilities means showers rather than hand washing?)

Yes, this is the legislation in question:

Toilet and washing facilities
4.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), suitable toilet and washing facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils.

(2) Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

(3) Where separate facilities are provided under paragraph (1) for pupils who are disabled, they may also be used by other pupils, teachers and others employed at the school, and visitors, whether or not they are disabled.

(4) Suitable changing accommodation and showers must be provided for pupils aged 11 years or over at the start of the school year who receive physical education

Hmm my kids school has a toilet in every class which is mixed sex with an open door (closed cubicle) that either sex can use. I think that's sensible and saves time on leaving the class for the toilets.. teachers are always in the classroom when these are open.

They have girls and boys toilets at breaktime

Seems quite sensible to me. Saying all that I don't know of any trans children in the school anyway and it's a pretty progressive school- lots of same sex parents, nobody seems to find that a shock which I don't think they should anyway but just noting that lesbian and gay parents choose the school

I also don’t think that the loos themselves are a problem for prepubescent children, just as I do not have a problem with mums taking young sons into the ladies or dads taking young daughters into the gents.

My problem is the reasons given by the governors and the message it sends to girls and boys, plus the fact they have actively removed girls’ spaces from pubescent girls (and said that it was the kind thing to do).

How can a primary school have anything to do with Stonewall for a start ? Because many children have same-sex parents and there is nothing shameful about being gay. Understanding there are different types of adult relationships is important and in no way ‘sexualising’.

On the topic of toilets though, I agree that children starting their period should have as much privacy as possible.

The article seems to make cear the school's focus following Stonewall training:

The school has a statutory duty to follow the Equality Act 2010 which 'requires all schools in England to eliminate discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and gender reassignment, advance equality of opportunity and foster good relations between different groups of students'.
"This means taking proactive steps to support LGBT pupils as well as pupils who do not conform to gender norms by promoting respect and understanding of LGBT people and issues across the whole school community.

"We believe this change is in line with the spirit, as well as the principles of this law."

this claim seems ambiguous:

"Furthermore, the behaviour of children in the KS2 toilets is significantly improved than when the school had gender specific blocks in the previous school building and pupils report that they feel much safer than they did in the gender specific blocks in the old school building."

The suggestion is that previous provision was in an older building, perhaps separate from the school and before the new focus on keeping loos clean for the next person both by the pupils and additional cleaning.

I'm so pleased that the behaviour of KS2 children has improved at the cost of KS2 girls' privacy...

If I was a parent of governor at this school I would be looking at their behaviour bullying records very carefully. We know that girls are sexually harassed in primary as well as secondary schools.

Now someone remind me why the World Health Organisation insists on single sex toilets and washing facilities for women's safety ??

If I were a parent there I'd be asking if the school carried out an impact assessment. Parents should mount a legal challenge.

I'm sure there was a similar case a few months ago in Scotland a few months ago.

I'm so pleased that the behaviour of KS2 children has improved

That may well have happened as a consequence of moving the toilet provision into the main school and as described, a number of focused whole school prjects eg:

"by promoting respect and understanding of LGBT people and issues across the whole school community."

"We encourage all our children to be tolerant of others. This means developing awareness that the toilet they use will also be used by others and need to be left ready for the next person – whoever that may be."

We don't have separate toilets at home so I don't see why it is an issue at school.

Do you let hundreds of strangers use them?

And even the closest families don’t share the bathroom at the same time.

Who takes a dump while someone else is brushing their teeth?

Young children need to know they can set boundaries.

They have all the time in the world to become ‘inclusive’ when they reach the age of consent.

"Furthermore, the behaviour of children in the KS2 toilets is significantly improved than when the school had gender specific blocks in the previous school building"

I suspect they mean the behaviour of BOYS is significantly improved. Proponents of mixed sex education have remarked on how the presence of girls "civilizes" boys in the classroom and curbs their worst boy-group excesses even as they acknowledge the reduced quality of education for girls.

The redistribution of rape statistics to record male rapes as female rapes could be read as positively reducing the number of rapes by males if you squint your eyes and don't think beyond the numbers.

The school seems to be misquoting Equality Act 2010 protected characteristics.
(many do)

'Sex' is one,
'Gender reassignment' another
barrowhall.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Equalities-Information-and-Objectives-Mar-16-Mar-18-review.pdf

Interesting to relate Schools 'interpretation' of the Equalities Act to this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412555-Womens-and-Equality-committee-on-equalities-act.

Sex (and issues of transgender) is meaningless.

I suspect they mean the behaviour of BOYS is significantly improved. Proponents of mixed sex education have remarked on how the presence of girls "civilizes" boys in the classroom and curbs their worst boy-group excesses even as they acknowledge the reduced quality of education for girls

Funny how behaviour in all boys schools can be and often is very good. Yet is something opted out of in mixed sex schools and heavy reliance on girls to sort it. Then they thank them like this....

I agree with earlier comment that this is being driven by the darker intentions at Stonewall to groom girls into getting used to never having single sex spaces, to never have a place they know they can have collective relief from boys' behaviour.