Anger as gender neutral toilets introduced at primary school without parents knowing

[MrsSnippyPants]

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/17197253.anger-as-gender-neutral-toilets-introduced-at-primary-school-without-parents-knowing/?ref=twtrec

I would be furious about this. Girls often start their periods at primary school and can take a while to get the hang of dealing with them. They absolutely need somewhere private to wash hands etc.
I thought single sex toilet provision was compulsory from age 8?

Penguin - Of course there is nothing shameful about being gay, and some children will have same sex parents. I didn’t suggest anything else.
That still doesn’t say anything to me about why a largely trans supporting org is so keen to get into Primary schools. These are not older teenagers who might be sexually active, these are little children. They don’t yet have a sexuality. Why are Primary schools tying themselves to Stonewall ? Creepy .

I agree NotMeOhNo

Sophia
"We don't have separate toilets at home so I don't see why it is an issue at school."

Just because I share a toilet with my husband and sons doesn't mean any male is entitled to knock on my door and pile in.

I also share a bed with my husband. Also doesn't mean any male is entitled to knock on my door and pile in.

You are making a piss poor argument. Pun absolutely intended.

They did this in Scotland this year too

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16590172.parents-anger-over-new-gender-neutral-toilets-in-primary-schools/

Who takes a dump while someone else is brushing their teeth?

Me, we only have one loo in the house! .

Dd hated toilet cubicles when younger and would never lock the door but use the loo with the door ajar as was terrified of small spaces. So a gender neutral toilet would have been awful for her.

We have them at work and I can confirm the floor and toilets are covered in piss. Even when you’ve wiped piss off the seat and sit down you realise too late you’ve got someone else’s piss on the back of your legs as it was down the front edge of the porcelain on the outside as well.

I now use another building When I need a wee at work.

Instead of gett8ng mad.

Can someone sue the school and stonewall?

I’d love to know why Stonewall hate women so much. Why would anyone think it was acceptable to remove female only spaces?

A few years ago I did some temping in a place with a very small mixed sex workforce and only one loo. It always smelt disgusting and I hated using it. I feel truly sorry for girls going through the embarrassment of puberty if they’re forced to share their toilets with boys.

The more I read the more I believe that none of this ‘gender neutral’ ideology has anything to do with being inclusive and everything to do with destroying women and girls' rights to set boundaries.

We don't have separate toilets at home so I don't see why it is an issue at school
This is such a weak argument that keeps getting rolled out like it's a bombshell.
If I walk into my bathroom and find pee on the floor or the seat, I can call in the offending male to clean it up.
I don't have strangers using my toilet.
I have never felt at risk of harm from any man who has used my toilet.

I find it so distressing that while everyone is mentioning metoo, there is this huge push to take away any single sex provisions. I can’t quite believe it, I just don’t understand why everyone isn’t pushing to ensure that girls and women are safeguarded.

This is because the idiots cannot tell the difference between sex and gender. Those with an axe to grind (either justifying their own actions or plain old money reasons) are pushing the agenda bloody hard.

In the 70s (when I became aware of them) Unisex loos seemed to be more progressive (there was a choice to say 'no thanks'). Nowadays the whole 'gender neutral' is purely for those who dumbly think a dress = female (or rather woman). If you say 'no thanks' you are on a par with Pol Pot. It really does echo the tactics of PIE - which I was vaguely aware of as a child and even then I thought they were a bunch of Bad Men and Stupid Women.

I was at school with a girl whose mum died when she was tiny and she was brought up by her dad with a load of brothers. She was very sporty, rather 'masculine', had her hair cut like her brothers - and everyone assumed she was gay. Of course she wasn't - why the hell should she be?

Not read full thread but I'm confused as I'm sure under architecture guidelines for schools it's single sex toilets.

Adults might have mixed sex but certainly the ones I've seen are single cubicles off a corridor with hand basin.

Because of the whole diversity thing, primaries are exploring all this, a lot, through PSHE.

Any sort of award these days requires evidence that you are being inclusive and explore diversity.

There's even a large part of it to evidence and include when applying to do the Arts Mark for example, which is now a two year project that you'll then write a review on and the arts council decide what level to award you based on how fabulous you have been. There's a number of sections to cover, (around 9? Can't remember) and one is diversity.

So it's absolutely everywhere, and really for good reason considering the main reasons for the EA. I think it's part of the UNICEF awards too (children rights respecting award or something?) - for good reason obviously but clearly it's possible for schools to end up misinterpreting things. And clearly it depends which other organisations they've worked with.

I've also just realised that many schools are now under trusts who hold pots of money donated from businesses and local universities etc with the proviso that two people from those places are included in the board of governors. The trusts obviously have to have guidelines etc which will include diversity.

how the fuck these schools are affording to work with some of these charities or do these things I have no idea, funding really is in crisis

And why clarity on sex and gender is really important.

And why clarity on sex and gender is really important.

Seems that Warrington LA have mistakenly replaced sex with gender as one of the protected characteristics of the Equality Act which informs their policies and inclusion monitoring.
(this is common)

NeurotrashWarrior, I quoted the relevant law above. Mixed sex for over 8s must be single lockable cubicles, which these are.

I don’t see the problem in unisex toilets if there are cubicles full stop. Some people just like to get offended for the sake of it!! We shouldn’t be teaching our children that there is a huge divide between them and teaching children from a young age that men are bad. That’s just ridiculous. Obv for young girls just starting their periods there should be provision while they get used to it perhaps which I think is a good compromise but everyone should be living together happily. Jeez you like to drive a wedge on these boards

Geraniumpink

I don’t know if anyone else saw that program a year or so ago about making a class environment gender neutral - things like getting the class teacher to stop calling the girls ‘love’ etc. The only thing the boys and girls really hated was making the toilets unisex. Really not a good idea

Yes, I did see the programme. Like the poster above, it was annoying that they could not tell the difference between gender and sex and went as far as making the toilets mixed-sex. It did, however, say a lot that the girls were on board with all the other changes but not the mixed sex loos. That desire for privacy and dignity was already there for 7 year olds. And they didn't express their dislike for the mixed sex loos, they just stopped using them. The girls held in their need to pee all day long.

So, for that reason, muxed-srx loos have no place in schools. As usual it's the girls which suffer.

Obv for young girls just starting their periods there should be provision while they get used to it perhaps which I think is a good compromise but everyone should be living together happily. Jeez you like to drive a wedge on these boards

There is a provision. It's called a single sex toilet. Girls on their periods shouldn't be chucked out of their own fucking toilet to make room for boys.

I don’t see the problem in unisex toilets if there are cubicles full stop. Some people just like to get offended for the sake of it!! We shouldn’t be teaching our children that there is a huge divide between them and teaching children from a young age that men are bad.

2016 APPG report on sexual assaults of girls in schools:
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/9102.htm

recent BBC article: 'Mothers want action over sexual assaults at school'
(extract)
They say they are "exhausted" by trying to persuade government officials to listen and also to implement in full the recommendations of the report by the Women and Equalities Select Committee.

The mothers' letter to the BBC continued: "We have learned that it is difficult for most people to talk about child abuse when the person committing the abuse is also a child.

Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES
"We have learned that when your child is raped by another child there is little or no support available. Social services offer nothing. The waiting lists for support from charities are hugely long."

They are concerned that little appears to be changing on the ground and want to see some specific steps taken including:

step-by-step guidance for primary school head teachers on how to deal with allegations of peer-on-peer abuse where it involves children under the criminal age of responsibility of 10 years old
mandatory training for teachers of up to half a day a year on safeguarding against peer-on-peer sexual assaults
clear guidelines on managing the transition from primary to secondary school in these cases, so children who have been the victims of sexual violence are given priority in admissions to avoid being in the same school.
central collection of data of sexual assaults in schools including peer-on-peer
Peer-on-peer abuse under-recognised
In a speech this week, the Children and Families Minister, Nadhim Zahawi, said he recognised the seriousness of peer-on-peer abuse.

"We know that it can remain under-recognised by professionals working with children and under-reported by children themselves."

This month's new guidelines for schools in England set out their legal duty to keep children safe, including from sexual violence." (continues)
www.bbc.com/news/education-45498984

embedded link to guidelines:www.gov.uk/government/publications/keeping-children-safe-in-education--2

Mixed sex facilities (aka gender neutral / unisex) eg toilets and changing rooms increase risk of sexual assault for girls and women:
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

"Mixed sex facilities (aka gender neutral / unisex) eg toilets and changing rooms increase risk of sexual assault for girls and women:"

That article is about changing rooms. Is there a link to research about cubicle toilets?

I was sexually assaulted in a mixed sex toilet aged 12.
It had full walls and door, so no gaps.
Therefore it was more soundproof, so nobody heard me yelling for help.
The full door also made sure nobody could see or hear my struggling.

We shouldn’t be teaching our children that there is a huge divide between them

Erm no one is? Except that when it comes to sex, personal privacy and consent there are very important safeguarding considerations to put in place as well as teach.

That article is about changing rooms. Is there a link to research about cubicle toilets?

Worth waiting for the talk by Prof Clara Greed at WPUK Bath to be uploaded. She is an expert in the field.
It should go up soon.

Obv for young girls just starting their periods there should be provision while they get used to it

Unless you are going to have a special 'period toilet', that would be a toilet for girls.

At what point do you get so used to having a period that you can happily deal with it in a cubicle that opens onto a corridor as pictured in the article?

To be honest I think all children over the age of 8 would be unhappy with the pictured set up regardless of sex.

Erm no one is? Except that when it comes to sex, personal privacy and consent there are very important safeguarding considerations to put in place as well as teach

Perhaps these people think they should change together for pe as well.

I know dd and her friends were hiding behind and but getting off to the kitchen to change way befire they were intentionally segregated in school.

Perhaps there should no separation at all at primary or secondary if there's no difference at all?