Jordan Peterson on Question Time next Thursday

[HandsOffMyRights]

As somebody fairly new to the self ID debate, could somebody please tell me how Jordan is connected? And what (if anything) this means for next week?

Okay go for it in supporting him, but many feminists will not be joining you. He is an MRA and he actively stands against feminism. He believes in biological essentialism, which I thought we all stood against. A world with people like him in power would not be a good world, even if it did resolve certain social problems like self-ID. Supporting an MRA hero is like turkeys voting for Christmas to me.

People who love this dickhead: Incels, MRAs, superstitious twat-waffles, white men who think that white men are the most oppressed group in the world...

There is a strand among GC feminism that is reminiscent of the anti-sex/anti-porn feminism of the 80s and 90s - that view that it's fine to make friends with rightwing douchebags if they agree with you on your pet obsession. The thing you have in common is not so much your view on this particular obsession, it's a fondness for the idea that other people need to be firmly controlled...

People who love this dickhead: Incels, MRAs, superstitious twat-waffles, white men who think that white men are the most oppressed group in the world...

I find some of what he has to say interesting. I'm none of those things. My son, who is a white, middle class , privately educated male far from thinking that he is a member of an oppressed group agrees with Peterson that men need to grow up. We both agree with Peterson that identify politics is a disease.

There is a strand among GC feminism that is reminiscent of the anti-sex/anti-porn feminism of the 80s and 90s - that view that it's fine to make friends with rightwing douchebags if they agree with you on your pet obsession

Oh my. I really love this objection to him. I'm not a gender critical feminist. I am strongly anti- porn and anti prostitution (I assume by "anti-sex" you really mean "doesn't think prostitution is just a work choice like any other")

Many people for different reasons are anti-porn and anti- prostitution. You make it sound as if it were a bad thing.

The problem is that when you lend credence to his world-view, your own stance loses credibility. I am not talking about you Lass because you don’t identify as a GC feminist. But for those of you who are GC and resist socially constructed gender-roles and believe that biological essentialism has harmed women throughout history, how do you square that with support for Petersen who believes the opposite? Do you reason that it doesn’t matter because the single issue you agree on is more important?

The problem is that when you lend credence to his world-view, your own stance loses credibility

Most of you think Andrea Dworkin is a genius yet I wonder outwith a congregation of the converted how much credibility is lost when anyone starts quoting her.

Reanimated SGB's points are just an outpouring of hyperbolic insults, including a little dig at "anti-sex" feminists, so I'm not inclined to give her argument much credibility.

I don't like JP, t he is entitled to his opinions. One of he good things about Question Time is that they do usually try to get a balanced table, which is better than an echo chamber.

Reanimated is spot on about various people on this board aligning themselves with Trump, or Tommy Robinson or whatever misogynistic shitface just because of some apparently mutually held criticism.

What does "aligning themselves" mean in the context of your post JC4PMPLZ?

Andrea Dworkin was extreme and presented an extreme version of feminism, but she was undoubtedly feminist. Someone like Trump or Peterson believe the exact opposite of what feminists do. They want to preserve the structures that favour men. I don’t think they are comparable really.

By aligning with, I guess things like retweeting support, expressing approval for, refusing to condemn etc.

What does "aligning themselves" mean in the context of your post JC4PMPLZ?

It's the "Hitler was a vegetarian" tactic. It means I'm going to try to discredit your argument by picking the most extreme example of persons who might have the same point of view on one particular issue and pretend that you agree with everything they say.

Citing Tommy Robinson is a particularly egregious employment of the tactic. I doubt anyone here aligns with him.

It's a bullying tactic and a bit dim.

As for supporting Tommy Robinson, I have no words. No, he is a racist who nearly fucking jeopardised several trials due to his extreme idiocy. He gives no shits about women, which is why he also has no qualms about assaulting them.

I dunno Lass. I think a fairly prominent person in the movement has been quite pro TR (and also Jordan Peterson). Personally I don’t want to fight the fight on the basis of free speech. It’s not about having the freedom to call transwomen men- it’s about the state and the law recognising that women need single sex spaces for their safety and dignity. That’s why I prefer the reasoned arguments of people like Kathleen Stock and other academics, even if their tactics are not as radical.

I'm not particularly interested in what feminist academics have to say. The free speech argument counts for more. The totalitarian left , Momentum and the narrow-minded tribalism of the left bothers me far more than trans issues.

It's a bullying tactic and a bit dim.

The dim bit is the most obvious.

The topic of GRA - is firstly an issue of women’s rights - and then as a result of the no platforming & no debate it is also a freedom of speech and expression issue. When the dust settles on this issue & women’s rights win - which is what I think and hope will happen. I would like everyone involved to approach all future issue where one side is silenced, shamed and doxxed - even if they disagree - and defend the right of the other side to ‘offend people or have the wrong belief’

Jordan Peterson admires that fucker Yaxley-Lennon and reckons the British 'elite' is out to get him.

Peterson's baiting of trans people is NOTHING to do with his desire to support women, it's about him being an attention-seeking dicksplash.

ReanimatedSGB's baiting of mumsnet people is NOTHING to do with his desire to support women, it's about him being an attention-seeking dicksplash

Fixed that for you.

It’s true though what SGB says. Seriously. JP is no friend of women. If you’re cool with that- cool, but don’t pretend JP is something that he’s not.

Electron, that's kind of... interesting. Are you trying to suggest that disliking Peterson/Yaxley-Lennon/some aspects of GC arguments makes a person somehow not a MNer?
I don't often give in to the temptation to pull rank, so to speak, but I have been on MN for more than 10 years.

I quite like Jordan Peterson at least from what I've seen. I agree with Emtwizzle .

Watch him on the Wright Show,

I look forward to QT.

I don't often give in to the temptation to pull rank, so to speak, but I have been on MN for more than 10 years.

What a lobster comment.

I agree with him on some things but that doesn't mean I admire or idolize him. Most of what he says I think is derivative rubbish. He's beginning to believe his own PR and losing touch with reality. The all meat diet is a clear sign of someone losing touch with reality. I'll be interested in how he deals with QT.

this is where tribalism goes wrong. It is possible to fundamentally disagree on some things but agree on others even though you are coming from a completely different standpoint.

Yup. I don't understand that view at all..like the arguments of 'dome daily mail articles agree with you, which means you are clearly WRONG!'. Its possible to agree on some things whilst disagreeing on others. Agreeing with Petersons stance on pronoun nonsense does not mean I have to agree with everything her has ever said.

He's a proponent of free speech. That's where his views 'align' with mine. I happen to think free speech is a vital component of being able to make your case and fight for the outcome you desire. What he says about lobsters doesn't interest me, or what he thinks of Tommy Robinson.