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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My employer has invited Susie Green for a transgender inclusion event

110 replies

cornflakegirl · 01/11/2018 11:00

We have a new Head of Diversity. He has invited Susie Green for a panel event at my office. The new "transitioning at work" policy will also be launched the same day. We're also partnering with Stonewall, so I can imagine what the policy is likely to say.

I'm willing to stand up as GC at work, but I also need to keep my job, so need to do it calmly and respectfully. Any advice on how to approach this?

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/11/2018 11:02

What does the policy say? That might be critical to whether you can stand up for yourself or quietly develop something horribly contagious that means you can't be there that day ...

BeUpStanding · 01/11/2018 11:03

Blimey... Not sure if I can offer much practical advice, but I respect and admire your commitment to stand up for what's right. Good luck!

Angryresister · 01/11/2018 11:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FissionChips · 01/11/2018 11:04

I’d print out some leaflets with facts about what she did to her child on them, then stick them all over the place.

arranfan · 01/11/2018 11:08

Is it plausible for you to say that you're aware that EHRC guidance on the EqA 2010 was flawed and only recently corrected on 5 Oct. - is the director confident that both SG and Stonewall have updated their information and guidance to reflect those corrections?

Will you have sight of the policy before it's launched or is it a done deal?

Gncq · 01/11/2018 11:21

Ask if they're going to change all toilets in the building to "mixed sex"?

cornflakegirl · 01/11/2018 11:44

Yet - don't know yet, not issued. I don't have to go to the event, but I feel like I should.

Angry, Fission - tempting, but see above points on calm and respectful ;)

Arran - thank you, will think about that. Don't think that the changes are a gotcha, but might be a way to open up the conversation.
Don't feel that I can ask to see the policy before launch. Never met the new Head of Diversity, although other women I respect have said he's good.

Gncq - will protest that if they do, as our toilets are not individual ones at any of our sites.

OP posts:
nauticant · 01/11/2018 11:57

Gosh, that's not straightforward. You can go and keep your gob shut. Go along and say something that can be framed as a "personal attack" so so easily. Or just avoid it.

About the only question that comes to my mind is something along the lines about guidelines for puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, surgery setting age limits in the UK and what she thinks of those and whether she feels they should be relaxed.

Or dig out one of her more inflammatory comments and ask her to justify it.

9toenails · 01/11/2018 11:58

If you have opportunity, you might ask Ms Green what her (then) son thought a girl was (or, equivalently what 'girl ' meant to him), and ask whether her (now) daughter thinks the same.

You could politely frame these questions in terms of what sort of expressed thoughts we might watch out for in our own children, perhaps regarding stereotypical/non-stereotypical toys, dress, hair length, whatever?

A follow-up - whatever answer she gives - could be to question how far similar such thoughts in your own child might justify you having your child's body surgically altered.

I am sure this could all be done calmly and respectfully; with neutral intent, as it were.

Blanketbox · 01/11/2018 12:05

I would avoid any discussion of SGs personal situation. Just go to the event and question anything in the guidance or policy that doesn’t seem right, eg unisex toilets; policing of beliefs. Ensure that the policy wording includes ‘sex’ not ‘gender’.

Blanketbox · 01/11/2018 12:07

And of course keep an eye out for stereotyping so you can challenge. All this is perfectly professional and ought to be fine at work. Personal comments about SG less so! Also, has she been invited because your work relates to kids?

senua · 01/11/2018 12:07

The new "transitioning at work" policy will also be launched the same day.

It sounds like you have to intervene before the event, before they write the policy. What is the company's definition of transgender - does it comply with current law, does it involve a GRC?

Blanketbox · 01/11/2018 12:07

If so, you can ask more pointed qs about safeguarding

SonEtLumiere · 01/11/2018 12:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Needmoresleep · 01/11/2018 12:09
  1. Act naive and ask about the difference between sex and gender, especially if she has conflated the two, so hopefully others will end up confused as well.
  1. Ask her her views on sport. This is the one thing that men really understand. They don't want their daughters put at risk on the sports field by having to play against large male bodied people.
  1. Ask if, in the light of her experiences and fight with the NHS, whether NHS policies have changed? If not why not? Or do people ever want to detransition. What proportion? What happens? What is the research?
  1. Ask what transgender encompases. Someone told you it included cross-dressers as well as those with dysphoria. Is that true?

In short no need to disagree with her. Simply act interested and see how she responds. Lots in the room with be sympathetic to those with gender dysphoria, as many are on this board, its the self ID that is the problem. (As is the idea of having a child castrated, but I guess she will just use the "dead child" argument.)

RiverTam · 01/11/2018 12:15

I would ask who has been consulted within the company prior to this new 'transitioning at work' policy being drawn up and ask if women were consulted and what kind of risk assessment was done, and of course does it comply with the Equalities Act. I would also draw attention to Stonewall's very broad definition of 'trans'. But I would address that to the HoD before this meeting. I would probably avoid the event with Susie Green.

FloralBunting · 01/11/2018 12:17

I would avoid any element of the personal. Far too much credence has been given to the woman based on personal decisions she made about her child.

If she's there in a professional capacity, hold her to it. Half the problem with this nonsense is the over reliance on emotional flimflam. Brass tacks. What does this mean practically in the workplace and will it contravene equality legislation? Etc. That'd be my approach.

R0wantrees · 01/11/2018 12:18

Your employee might be encouraged to read this article by James Kirkup in The Spectator:
1 May 2018
Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?

(extract)
"As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies.

Some people in the gender debate say harsh and critical things about Mermaids. I am not doing so here. My suggestion is that Green, having had her own family experience of transgender issues, has decided to devote herself to charitable work in the hope of offering what she believes as help to others who need it. The same is true of several others who work or volunteer at Mermaids. Read this for a moving account of how devoted some parents are to Mermaids for their help.

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Perhaps also a more recent one which was lead piece in recent edition:
'Trans rights have gone wrong
The new gender orthodoxy allows no room for dissent'
(extract)
"Others groups include Mermaids and the Gender Identity Research & Education Society, both frequently consulted by councils, NHS trusts, police forces and Whitehall departments for guidance on applying the law around transgender children. Both are tiny charities run not by lawyers but by parents whose children changed gender; it’s hard to think of another field of policy where personal experience is prioritised over objective expertise.

According to Michael Biggs, an Oxford University sociologist, the speed at which transgender rights advocates have advanced their cause is unprecedented in western history. In less than a decade, he suggests, the movement has embedded itself in public and corporate life and often succeeded in changing policy and practice without significant scrutiny or question.

How? Stonewall is the biggest exponent of the argument that trans rights are the new gay rights, and that conflation of gay and trans is key to the trans lobbyists’ power, especially in the public and voluntary sectors, where allegations of intolerance can end careers. The CEO of a major charity, a woman who has worked at board level in FTSE 100 companies, recently told me she was simply ‘too scared to speak publicly’ about her fear that the systematic misapplication of equality laws is eroding women’s rights and safeguarding rules. Being called a bigot might cost her her job, she says." (continues)

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/trans-rights-have-gone-wrong/

Charliethefeminist · 01/11/2018 12:21

Can you ask which women's advocacy groups were consulted? It seems unfair if they weren't.

Ereshkigal · 01/11/2018 12:24

she's there in a professional capacity, hold her to it. Half the problem with this nonsense is the over reliance on emotional flimflam. Brass tacks. What does this mean practically in the workplace and will it contravene equality legislation? Etc. That'd be my approach.

YY. Ask her how practically to balance competing rights of women Nd girls. She'll inevitably respond with something emotive.

OldCrone · 01/11/2018 12:26

I agree with Needmoresleep - ask questions from the point of view of someone who doesn't know much about the transgender issue. Asking about crossdressers is good, because most people still think that 'transgender' means people who have physically transitioned or are intending to. And sport is a good way to get the interest of men - they want to protect their daughters, and most people don't like cheats.

MrsAird · 01/11/2018 12:26

I would not go to the event.

Instead I would calmly and politely approach the new Head of Diversity in advance, and make the following points:

i) there is a widespread debate ongoing about gender issues and how they interact with other protected characteristics (link perhaps to Spectator as suggested above).

ii) Susie G is a controversial figure who does not come from a background of diversity professionalism or policy training, but she simply speaks from her own experience and as such, it is not clear what she has to offer a workplace event such as this one. If anecdotal accounts and personal life stories are being welcomed, you can suggest some other voices to be heard.

iii) ^^ who has been consulted within the company prior to this new 'transitioning at work' policy being drawn up and ask if women were consulted and what kind of risk assessment was done, and of course does it comply with the Equalities Act. This.

Ereshkigal · 01/11/2018 12:29

And needmoresleep's approach is always one I favour if you have the ovaries as you've got to be good at acting to pull off the innocent tone and get to the heart of the matter with the right words.

EverardDigby · 01/11/2018 12:30

I agree with MrsAird that it's a bit weird that Susie Green and Mermaids are focused around children, so what does she bring to workplace policies and what is the talk about?

I'm impressed you're planning on going and questioning though!

concretesieve · 01/11/2018 12:33

Many good suggestions here. I also like Needmoresleep's approach.