Peak GC Moment?

[CantUnderstandNoThing]

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

*isn't present, that should read.

They can be our allies on this one issue, but they do not share a worldview with us and they are not gender critical.

Yes that's what I meant. I think that's a bit nitpicky to be honest. Telling people off for not using precisely the right language (something I have categorically said I don't do to allies even though I strongly disagree with using female pronouns for males) is part of this same problem of not feeling comfortable to have a debate or disagree.

so why wouldn't I apply that to all transgender people who state a preference

Not trying to be antagonistic here, just exploring your position. Are there limits on this? Or does it literally mean every male person who says they identify as a woman, even Karen White etc?

Floral I think it's mostly whenever you would use pronouns in any situation, like talking about them to a third person - where did he go etc, what did she say. I'd never correct a mutual friend using preferred pronouns about a trans friend. In fact, probably (exploring this in my head as I speak) I might even correct other people. Say for example my DF, who is renowned for being rude & combative. If he referred to a trans family member using a pronoun I knew upset them, I almost definitely WOULD say something.
It is a bit of cognitive dissonance, but I can live with it thus far.

Ereshkigal don't worry, I am still exploring my own position!
I don't know is the honest answer, I'd probably be a bit mealy-mouthed and evasive. Say for India or LM or Paris for example, I would use 'she'.
Karen White or so on, I'd probably use he. If I used pronouns at all - I guess to avoid facing up to my own inconsistency (!) I would use their name/surname and avoid pronouns altogether.
I'm fairly new to this whole thing, have a lot of feminist theory etc to get my head round - I think trying to have a final, consistent rational position on pronouns is a bit beyond me at the moment, I'd rather avoid the aggro that comes with that particular principle, and concentrate on other areas I'm more sure about.
In short, I still get persuaded to 'be nice' when it comes to preferred names and pronouns.
But I don't care about 'deadnaming' either really - I am nothing if not inconsistent!
(Perhaps further on in my 'journey' I will have a much more logical and principled stance!)

Karen White or so on, I'd probably use he.

Can I ask why? Karen White identifies as a woman.

Ereshkigal don't worry, I am still exploring my own position!
I don't know is the honest answer, I'd probably be a bit mealy-mouthed and evasive. Say for India or LM or Paris for example, I would use 'she'.
Karen White or so on, I'd probably use he. If I used pronouns at all - I guess to avoid facing up to my own inconsistency (!) I would use their name/surname and avoid pronouns altogether.

Thank you, appreciate the honest openness and that you took my question in the spirit it was intended :)

If you are doing it as a courtesy, I imagine you might not want to extend that courtesy to Karen White.

I see pronouns as gendered so feminine and masculine as opposed to being female and male. So, for me to use "She" for transwomen would probably mostly be based on gender expression, or how right it felt for me to apply that gender to them. Pronouns are generally fairly easy to avoid altogether anyway, at least when talking directly to the person in question.

VickyEadie it's mostly just a gut feeling really but PurpleOva probably is quite close - I'm usually doing it as a courtesy and to 'be nice'/avoid upsetting people. I couldn't give a shit about Karen White's feelings as he is a violent criminal.
As obnoxious and unlikeable as I find other people, I still perhaps want to extend them some courtesy. Until my own shifting blurry boundaries have been crossed!

It's all very confusing. I was discussing a number of transgender-related issue with a friend this morning, and telling her about Rachel MacKinnon I ended up saying "she-he"! In my own case, it's clearly about whether I think the person deserves to be treated with politeness; it reminds me of the way newspapers always refer to the defendant as Ms X or Mr X when reporting a trial, but as soon as someone is convicted they become just 'X'. I just see it (perhaps wrongly) as a social convention/politeness thing, and of course tit's been that way for decades, ever since Jan Morris transitioned, which means it is rather entrenched.

But it's the only characteristic we do this for. If Karen was black, I would describe them as black, if Karen was gay I would describe them as gay , if they were disabled I would describe them as disabled, it wouldn't matter what crimes Karen had committed they would still be black, disabled etc. It wouldn't cause me distress to describe them as such, why would it. But it hurts me to describe Karen as a woman and I would never do it. And pretty much everyone I have spoken to feels the same. And in my view thats where it all falls down.

Floral
honestly, I would likely use preferred pronouns in a face to face setting on a pure courtesy basis, but I rarely would see the need as you only use pronouns in f2f when the person isn't present, surely? Mostly I would use someone's name anyway

This idea people have, that you never use pronouns when the person is present is untrue. I've seen footage of someone screaming "my pronouns are 'they' you fucking cunt!" at Magdalen Berns, when MB said "she's blocking the stairs".

I have frequently used pronouns in someone's presence ie "pass me his coat please".

Plus, if pronouns were only used in someone's absence there wouldn't be so many cries of "misgendering". Sussex university have actually banned pronouns, everyone is referred to as "they" because they had so many compliants from students being misgendered.

Yes, I know it's possible to use pronouns in a person's presence, but it's not strictly necessary is all. At work I may well need to talk about someone in the third person while they are present, and I tend to use a phrase like 'the customer'. Also 'their' in that context doesn't sound odd to me.

Anyway, I've expended quite enough brain power on thinking about quirky pronoun use today, I think I shall now go and spend some time considering why Howard the Duck exists as a film and other matters of vital import.

Sussex university have actually banned pronouns

How??

It's not a great comparison, but mixed "race" people can also face identity issues. Say, Barack Obama is half black and half white, but he was raised by a white family. If he prefers to identify as black (possibly because he is seen as black by society), then I'm happy to call him black.
He doesn't stop being half white and to have had a mainly white upbringing. So, can he speak for people who were raised in black families in black neighbourhoods? Not really.

Again, not a great comparison, but I'm happy to call transwomen the same as I call women, but in the understanding that they are not fully women and that they have had and still have different experiences from women. And I wouldn't be happy with any who would want to tell me about periods or pregnancy or how women experience sexism.

I'm sure with some dialogue and good will it is possible to reach solutions that protect and respect women and transwomen. (And transpeople in general)

I find it particularly distasteful the cases where transwomen are forced to look as stereotypical men for ID sake. As if there was anything wrong with a man wearing make up or jewels or elaborate hair or a wig. (Can you imagine Trump being forced to reveal his bald spot or his true skin colour? )
But this goes all the way to gender stereotypes.

I have frequently used pronouns in someone's presence ie "pass me his coat please".

I wouldn't. That doesn't sound natural usage. I am of the view, and was taught, that using pronouns in the presence of the person being referred to is a bit ill-mannered (who's she? The cat's mother) and one should be using the person's name.

It would be more natural to say "pass Jack (or Jill's) coat to me". I might say "his coat"/"her coat" in a purely domestic situation , for example if I were asking my husband to pass me something for a child- and even then would probably use the child's name.

Sussex university have actually banned pronouns

How?

www.independent.co.uk/student/news/sussex-university-gender-neutral-pronouns-transgender-lgbt-rights-brighton-sexuality-politics-a7505671.html

They haven't.

My DM used the 'cat's mother' phrase, I never understood it as a child and I don't really now!!

ihaventgot

I still use it

Yup, totally ingrained usage in this house too. Pronouns, unless you are very clear about who you are referring to, can actually make relating facts really confusing because they are imprecise and general.

In all honesty, if someone requires the wild and wacky Ze etc. then you might as well use their name because it would be perfectly obvious to everyone who you were referring to (because everyone's inner monologue would go "Oh right, that person" and their inner monologue's eyes would roll hard)

Ihaventgottimeforthis

A female cat is a "she- cat" or a "she"

It is actually quite rude to have a conversation about a third party in that party's presence and to refer to them as he/she/him/her rather than by their name.

If one doesn't know their name then "the lady /gentlemen /man/boy/ person" with a descriptor if necessary.

In the coat example I don't think it is natural usage to say pass me "his" coat if "he" is within earshot.

At work I may well need to talk about someone in the third person while they are present, and I tend to use a phrase like 'the customer'. Also 'their' in that context doesn't sound odd to me

Oh good example. One would have to be very mild-mannered and easy going not to take some umbrage at being described as "he/she" in that situation.

Being serious - it's dehumanising. One is not being accorded the courtesy of one's name or of being valued as a customer or client.

Maybe the pronoun police weren't policed sufficiently by their parents enforcing the "cat's mother" rule.

I'm trying to remember when it was used, probably mostly when I was moaning about my sister and yes I probably was being a bit rude!
It probably is rare in real life to refer to someone in their presence as he/she/(it)...

Honestly do not understand the confusion. I've never understood how anyone could claim a man can be a woman or a woman can be a man and not know they're 100% lying to themselves.

I'm so saddened that you think PP was being rude or 'mean' in that interview because all she was doing was putting up boundaries as a woman, for women. India, as you well know put on a very convincing act in response. A well known tactic abusive men use to paint themselves as the good guy while making their (usually female) opponent/partner look 'crazy' or 'mean'.

All I feel is anger and shock in response to this Orwellian madness. I feel absolutely no sympathy for anyone who feels even slightly like there is any merit to this absurd ideology. Maybe I just wasn't socialised to be nice enough because this bs never did sit well with me, even a few years ago when gender critical people had no voice at all really.

Where I live it's the same type of people who tend to dismiss concerns with gender stereotyping but be against "gender ideology" (short for people being able to switch gender).
And vice versa, people against gender stereotyping being all in favour of self determination.

It tends to feel contradictory to me.