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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times on activists threatening academics

105 replies

Igneococcus · 28/10/2018 04:52

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/activists-thwart-work-on-gender-law-reforms-jx6lwd6tf?shareToken=228811c77bc80971bfe94c41286869c4

OP posts:
northender · 28/10/2018 08:39

I didn't hear it quite like that lang but I was half asleep!

R0wantrees · 28/10/2018 08:44

Lang I don't suppose you caught the name of the lawyer?

Datun · 28/10/2018 08:51

DuggeesWooOOooggle

Is that it then Datun? They think that because they have paid £££ for their education (or rather their parents have), that they should be taught what they want to hear?

It's to do with the student review system. Students fill out a form for student satisfaction. Which translates directly to funding. I can't remember all the questions, but I do remember at least one of them was about how much the beer cost at the student union.

There was a thread about it on here in terms of gold, silver and bronze awards that the universities achieve based on student feedback.

It was around the time where the president of one of the student unions was on the Andrew Neil show saying they had banned a whole load of newspapers from the student union, on the basis they disagreed with them!

So what with the students themselves arriving with government money, and them being able to shape the reviews for a specific university, it seems as though the unis are losing power over what is now a consumer driven product.

I'm sure someone else can explain it better, but that, I think, is the basics.

ChattyLion · 28/10/2018 08:51

This is absolutely crucial truth-telling from the Times.

These factual examples are very very important to get into the wider public understanding- that academics in 2018 are being silenced from doing important research on issues that affect everyday normal people like all of us and any of us. women and children in particular.

This is deeply sinister- whether you give a shit about gender or the trans narrative or not. It might be the trans narrative today that is the political focus but what next will academics be pressured not to look at?

Academics are being silenced from doing this work, silenced from getting funded to do this work, refused from getting the necessary ethical approval to do this work with research participants (if they need to interview people who have detransiitoned, say- a vital and under-researched group to hear from), then silenced from publishing widely and talking about it if they have already done the work and their work reached conclusions that don’t suit the TRA narrative or even which just ask questions about the status quo or suggest the need for more research. Assaults on academic freedom like this are an assault on all of us, academics or not.

Could add to the list James Caspian at Bath Spa University who was refused ethical approval to interview detransitioned people about their experiences and needs.

Thank you Flowers congratulations to all of you principled academics who are out and proud gender critical. I absolutely get how brave you are and the risks you are taking and thank you for doing this.

All the academics who are lurking- you’re not alone, lots of your students agree with you and the vast majority of the general public too from any poll I have seen.

This dogma is making is a complete attack on academic freedom to ask questions which are for the benefit of everyone- ironically, including for the benefit of people who transition.

There is nothing transphobic in doing this type of research work. It’s arguably transphobic NOT for it not to be done (or for people to actively BLOCK Hmm) this type academic research work just because they personally feel that a political orthodoxy which they value must trump reality.

Ignoring reality for the sake of political ideals, regardless of when others don’t share that value AND may be disadvantaged by those ideals (regardless of what they values they hold) is wrong and dangerous. We have been down this road before.

Turkey is another country where academics are being silenced right now. Is this what we want for the UK too?

Where does this anti-research dogma leave all trans people, all women and children - everyone? We ALL rely on facts as the basis for securing our safety, dignity and whatever medical or psychological care we need. How does this silencing agenda make those who promote this dogma any different from any other authoritarian promoter of any other political or religious authoritarian regime throughout history?

Everyone who relies on research findings and official statistics for our health care (ie all of us who use the NHS or other public services like schools, prisons) should be resisting this dogma because it is antithetical to reality-based living and essential services including health care, for all of us.

Transwomen are transwomen, transmen are transmen. Women are women, men are men. Present however you want, absolutely, but there are only two sexes, these are determined at conception, observed and recorded at birth and anobody can change sex in reality. Anything else is not giving ALL OF US the rights, protections, healthcare and public services that we need.

No respectable political dogma or religious belief (or amount of being well-meaning and wanting to be polite or kind to men) should be trying to take those things away from all of us, why is that OK? And while people must be free to believe in whatever they want, nobody else’s authoritarian, dogmatic views should be allowed to take those things away from all of us.

Yet this is happening (and without the support of the law behind it) so we need to speak up NOW in whatever way we can - while we still have the legal freedom to challenge this authoritarian dogma and this silencing behaviour around it.

Spindelina · 28/10/2018 08:51

This is what BBC fact check has to say on the matter:
Link

Datun · 28/10/2018 08:53

It may not have been a direct question about the price of the beer, but it was satisfaction with that side of the 'experience'.

LangCleg · 28/10/2018 08:56

Lang I don't suppose you caught the name of the lawyer?

I didn't, sorry! I think it will be on BBC News again at 9.30?

She said that she had several transgender friends and that all the issues needed proper scrutiny so that rights for them could move forwards, or words to that effect, and the denunciations by campus activists were unhelpful to that end.

R0wantrees · 28/10/2018 09:02

I think that any commentator that doesn't fully take on board and focus on th fact that Professor Rosa Freedman was shouted at by a student on campus where she works,

“a transphobic Nazi who should get raped”

something is seriously amiss.

This statement from the OP article is woefully inadequate:

"A Reading University spokesman insisted the event would go ahead and said the university would try to ensure “healthy and respectful debate”.

He added: “We respect the right of our trans staff and students to self-identify their gender and we have a track record of support for LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] staff and students.”

ChattyLion · 28/10/2018 09:03

More on James Caspian, who I believe is crowdfunding a judicial review of the decision by Bath Spa University:

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3129659-Update-from-James-Caspian-on-his-case-against-Bath-Spa-University-to-be-allowed-to-research-detransitioners

And Just one example of where robust academic research is really urgently needed (but I could have picked from 1000s of threads on here..we can all probably name several examples of what needs research attention around these issues).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3313760-Up-to-150-youngsters-treated-with-puberty-blocking-jabs-might-not-even-be-transgender

Datun · 28/10/2018 09:04

It's one thing encouraging rigourous debate, and allow for objections to be aired about potential speakers.

It's quite another to think that “a transphobic Nazi who should get raped” is in anywhere near the same ballpark.

OldCrone · 28/10/2018 09:04

I think the lawyer on BBC breakfast was Funke Abimbola. It wasn't very clear what she thought, but seemed to be saying that the research should be done so stopping it was a bad thing.

DuggeesWooOOooggle · 28/10/2018 09:04

I suppose I was being flippant Datun but it seems I was actually close to the mark. I can absolutely see the importance of asking students how they feel about the quality of their education - I'm sure pre tuition fees, there were some pretty dreadful tutors around (and probably still are) and I can see that one aspect of the fees system is that the universities are perhaps held more to account. But the danger is that if students are exposed to viewpoints they disagree with, they may see that as being 'bad teaching' and campaign to get that suppressed. Which perhaps underlines the point about these students being so young - I know at that age things seemed so black and white, I just didn't have the maturity to consider alternative viewpoints and how they might also be valid. And perhaps crucially I wouldn't be able to articulate what the difference was between a controversial view (as GC is seen as now) and one that was dangerous and likely to stir up hatred.

I started university in one of the first years of fees and I would never have dreamed of trying to get an academic removed who had been teaching for probably longer than I had been alive just because I disagreed with them! I still wouldn't because I believe in free speech and if you can't debate controversial issues at a university where can you?

R0wantrees · 28/10/2018 09:05

This is what BBC fact check has to say on the matter:

Spectator article on this:
'The BBC is wrong: university censorship is definitely not a myth'
Tom Slater
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/the-bbc-is-wrong-university-censorship-is-definitely-not-a-myth/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296433-BBC-Bias-Collecting-Examples-here?

R0wantrees · 28/10/2018 09:10

I think the lawyer on BBC breakfast was Funke Abimbola

funkeabimbola.com/external-roles

GCAcademic · 28/10/2018 09:10

This is what BBC fact check has to say on the matter

The methodology used for this exercise is extremely limited, looking at events featuring outside speakers, book bannings, and course changes. What is not examined is how academics are threatened, harassed, prevented through the peer review system from being able to fund or publish research in certain areas, the effect of Stonewall influencing institutional policies with their definition of transphobia as not believing in gender identity, etc.

FekkoThePenguin · 28/10/2018 09:13

In my day students would get booted out for threatening staff. Is it because the precocious little shits are now 'consumers'?

RaininSummer · 28/10/2018 09:13

This silencing of academics is, to me, one of the most chilling aspects of this whole insane debacle.

Datun · 28/10/2018 09:18

I'm not sure facts checked by the BBC are worth the paper they're written on, given the BBC's demonstration of never ending bias.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296433-BBC-Bias-Collecting-Examples-here

GoldenWonderwall · 28/10/2018 09:20

Terrible. When I was a full time student I cared about passing my course and having a good time with my friends.

I can’t imagine being pleased that you’ve got someone sacked or disciplined for having an opinion. People I know who have experienced actual discrimination haven’t felt smug and crowed about it when they’ve got an outcome, they’re bruised and exhausted.

FekkoThePenguin · 28/10/2018 09:24

They aren't experiencing anything though are they? I read on Twitter that he/she/bot isn't at the college anyway.

Professional shit stirrer and I'm sure they have a list of people to go after. Then someone will go after them. They will squeal like mad and cry 'victim'.

Freespeecher · 28/10/2018 09:36

It's all getting a bit 'Cultural Revolution'.

(Removes glasses, walks into lamppost)

FekkoThePenguin · 28/10/2018 09:45

(Hauls out stack of books on Maoist China. Strains back, settles down for a good long Sunday read...)☕️🍪🍪📚📚📚🤓

GoldenWonderwall · 28/10/2018 09:49

Exactly fekko It isn’t about someone’s genuine experience of transphobia and them seeking justice for it, it’s about someone playing Caesar with someone else’s livelihood for their own entertainment and gratification.

R0wantrees · 28/10/2018 09:56

Another one, reading about 'The Cultural Revoution' this sunny autumn Sunday.

FekkoThePenguin · 28/10/2018 09:58

I really feel for someone facing unemployment - I have bills to pay, child to support, pension to pay into - and I've got to eat! I've had periods when I've not worked and had no dole, no mummy and daddy to bail me put (well they could but I couldn't ask them for gods sake).

These little shits know nothing of life and treat it like a game.

There seems to be no consequences to them and there should be. They need lessons in real life. It whatever fluffy rainbow crap they are learning off social media. They shouldn't be in higher education as they don't seem to have the brains.