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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Zuzanna Mroz in The Spectator

60 replies

TimeLady · 26/10/2018 19:41

"Take it from a trans person: Corbyn is wrong about self-ID"

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/take-it-from-a-trans-person-corbyn-is-wrong-about-self-id/

OP posts:
Charliethefeminist · 26/10/2018 20:14

Had to stop reading at 'female spaces are suitable for a certain kind of man ie me' (paraphrase) sorry.

People like this could have spoken out years ago. Now they see themselves in danger, they decided to ride the coat tails of courageous women.

Too little, too late, too selfish.

Charliethefeminist · 26/10/2018 20:16

I'm sure kinder people than me will be along. But I'm sick of seeing this. Sick of it.

LangCleg · 26/10/2018 20:18

Too little, too late, too selfish.

Plus our womanhood. Nope. Fuck off.

I'll join you in the less-than-kind corner. All my fucks have been given elsewhere, I'm afraid.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 26/10/2018 20:27

Let’s be clear. Segregated female spaces are appropriate places for trans women who have physically transitioned into women via a combination of hormone therapy and surgery.

Let's be clear. This has never been the criteria.

The current GRC might well work for transpeople, but it doesn't work for all women and girls.

Charliethefeminist · 26/10/2018 20:31

We had a compromise, this access Zusanna says they love and need so much. Well, they didn't fight for it, did they?
Transexual people didn't fight for it until women had 'loosened the jar' , in a decade long battle. Now they want garlands?

Freespeecher · 26/10/2018 21:10

James Kirkup wanted someone to write the other side of the debate. Wonder if this article was supposed to be it?

terryleather · 26/10/2018 21:14

I'll join you in the less-than-kind corner. All my fucks have been given elsewhere, I'm afraid.

I'm joining you lot there. With and 

terryleather · 26/10/2018 21:16

With gin and cake, that should have said!

NothingOnTellyAgain · 26/10/2018 21:21

You can't change from a male human to a female human no matter how much surgery etc you have.

No man has "physically transitioned" into a woman. I mean, literally. It's a superficial facsimile but as women are seen as "non men" so the rest follows.

I have hardened my views in this respect.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 26/10/2018 21:22

Getting weary of the idea that who should qualify for entry into women's spaces is a question that should be thrashed out among various subsets of the population of male people.

Ereshkigal · 27/10/2018 12:04

Tommy Robinson has a video interview with this person.

Ereshkigal · 27/10/2018 12:08

Getting weary of the idea that who should qualify for entry into women's spaces is a question that should be thrashed out among various subsets of the population of male people.

This.

LassWiADelicateAir · 27/10/2018 12:15

I agree with her.

Juells · 27/10/2018 12:25

Of course you do, because you're nice

LassWiADelicateAir · 27/10/2018 12:34

No I'm not nice. Please don't assume the "female socialisation to be nice" argument applies to me. I just don't see any particular reason why a trans woman who has had full surgery should not use female changing rooms and toilets.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 27/10/2018 13:27

A male transperson who has full surgery may not look female.

Depending on the changing room, this may make women and girls uncomfortable at the very least.

MsBeaujangles · 27/10/2018 13:36

I think it is important to use the underpinning rationale for sex segregation to determine access.
I want sex segregation to be based on sexed bodies. Female only prisons, hospital wards etc afford privacy, dignity and safety. If someone has undergone full SRS, has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and has been screened for other, conditions/disorders (including paraphilias) I wouldn't mind sharing such spaces as I don't think my dignity or privacy would be compromised in the same way it would with a person with male genitalia.
I think the down side of this is that it would encourage males with GD to have irreversible surgery, which isn't a good thing. It would also create a 2 tier model that is unfair/distressing for those who can't have surgery for medical reasons but desperately want it.
Ultimately, I don't think we should require people who have gender dysphoria to use provision according to their natal sex, if this is something that is distressing and degrading for them, regardless of whether their sexed bodies have been fashioned to look like that of the other sex. The solution is not to eradicate single sex provision by replacing it with gender based provision. We need to think about how to uphold the underpinning rationale for the provision.

LassWiADelicateAir · 27/10/2018 15:04

Depending on the changing room, this may make women and girls uncomfortable at the very least

There are often posts on here by women saying that due to their "non conforming" appearance they have been challenged. I know it's trite but the oft mentioned Buck Angel by the rigid chromosomes definition should use female facilities as possibly should Fox Fisher. If Zuzanna Mroz were not open about her status I doubt anyone would realise.

I take MsBeaujangles' point about the risk of a 2 tier system. However it strikes me, as someone who is not "gender critical", that it's a tad hypocritical to refer to the harm self ID does to the people desrcibed on FWR as "genuine transexuals" and then pile on when one of them speaks up.

AspieAndProud · 27/10/2018 15:10

I was sympathetic to the idea transsexuals should have access to women’s spaces until a couple of years ago. Now I think it was the thin end of the wedge. Sorry, but transgenderism made us look more closely at transexualism and I don’t think there’s a clear dividing line between the two.

AspieAndProud · 27/10/2018 15:13

Also, if we are to open the doors to post-op transsexuals this is really forcing children with gender dysphoria down the medical route.

AspieAndProud · 27/10/2018 15:14

We’d effectively be saying ‘take the drugs, mutilate your bodies, and we’ll let you join our club.’

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 27/10/2018 15:15

I don't think anyone is saying that no male trans person ever passes for female. It's just that we have to be realistic and say that when they don't, women and girls may be uncomfortable.

Women who are challenging in female spaces would continue to be challenged, even if no transperson exists.

Why would Buck need to use women's spaces, I always assumed they want to use the men's? If men have a problem with that they need to speak up.

LassWiADelicateAir · 27/10/2018 15:22

Why would Buck need to use women's spaces, I always assumed they want to use the men's? If men have a problem with that they need to speak up

I'm sure he wouldn't- that wasn't particularly the point. If you are being logical then the theory is he should use female spaces and Zuzanna shouldn't.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 27/10/2018 15:24

No. I want women space to include only women. Im not bothered if men's spaces include women or not.

Datun · 27/10/2018 15:33

Let’s be clear. Segregated female spaces are appropriate places for trans women who have physically transitioned into women via a combination of hormone therapy and surgery.

Let's be clear. The only study of its kind that showed transwomen conformed to male pattern criminality, used men with gender dysphoria.

Transwomen might well decide that their effort to not look like a man constitutes womanhood and that's up to them. It doesn't and it's got nothing to do with being a women.

A man rejecting manhood is not a woman. And I'm sick to death of hearing it.

If you are being logical then the theory is he should use female spaces and Zuzanna shouldn't.

If Buck Angel wants to use the gents, that's up to him. That decision does not correlate with men using the women's. Unless you ignore the underlying power dynamic.

Buck is entitled to use the women's facilities. And would have to explain if challenged. That's the price of making yourself look like a man.

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