Zuzanna Mroz in The Spectator

[TimeLady]

"Take it from a trans person: Corbyn is wrong about self-ID"

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/take-it-from-a-trans-person-corbyn-is-wrong-about-self-id/

No, not at all Lass. 'Only women in the women's' is a perfectly coherent stance that is not contradicted by 'some women in the men's'.

Only women in the women's' is a perfectly coherent stance that is not contradicted by 'some women in the men's'

It kind of is- but so be it. And by your argument if even one man complained about a trans man using male facilities you would have to support him.

Getting weary of the idea that who should qualify for entry into women's spaces is a question that should be thrashed out among various subsets of the population of male people.

This! Absolutely fucking sick and tired of it.

They can all piss off. I don't care where they go.

It totally is, not kind of. No, I wouldn't have to accept Buck because that would open the door to any man using the women's because Buck looks like a man. Transactivists often say it's feminists fault that women who look more masculine are being challenged. It's not - it's the fault of transactivism. It didn't arise before because of the social honour system of trust that meant men didn't force themselves into women's facilities. TRA breached that and destroyed it.

Any transgender female who made themselves pass as a man can use the gents. They have no need to use the women's and any such use would be mischievous.

Most, if not all, masculine looking women who have not changed their bodies through hormones and surgery will still be recognisably female.

If a trans person passes well enough I guess it isn't an issue anyway
FTM pass well because of facial hair and testosterone ravages their skin. They still look 'off' though but they are no danger to men anyway
MTF rarely pass in RL. Paris Lees imo is the most convincing but that may be different in RL. But it seems a lot of MTF believe they pass. I have come across males in RL who seem to believe it. I don't know if they really do
The only solution imo is single sex spaces and a third gender neutral space

No, I wouldn't have to accept Buck because that would open the door to any man using the women's because Buck looks like a man

By the arguments on here you would, should he, in the very unlikely situation, choose to do so. The arguments against Zuzanna are that she is should not be permitted to use female spaces, no matter what she looks like or what surgery she has had . Buck Angel, who has not had no matter what he looks like, is a woman, following that line. And he has not had a phalloplasty.

Any transgender female who made themselves pass as a man can use the gents. They have no need to use the women's and any such use would be mischievous

They may well be mischievous but it still does not validate what your argument that they should not do so.

But it seems a lot of MTF believe they pass. I have come across males in RL who seem to believe it.

This seems to me to be very much part of the problem. In that autogynephilia does seem to present a delusion, in the eye of the beholder, as it were.

From what I have read, part and parcel of being aroused by their own reflection is the, quite natural in this case, assumption that they look hot (to themselves).

It comes as a severe shock, and something to be denied, that other people do not view them in the same way.

lass. The arguments aren't the same. Most men do not have the same reaction to a woman, transwoman or trans-man in their midst. They may feel uncomfortable but it's unlikely that they feel any kind of threat.

Which can't be said for the women's facility.

It's apples and oranges, not apples and apples.

Or, plums.

No, I would not. To accept Buck would, by extension, be to accept any man. And the only way to distinguish would quite literally be 'genital inspection'. Now, I'm not sure you'd want to promote that as a policy. Buck can pass in the gents, therefore Buck can use the gents.

There's someone on twitter who is a 'seven foot' trans. I hope they don't use female spaces. They are hardly at risk in the men's.

My attitude to transwomen who pass enough to use women’s facilities is the same as towards high functioning drunks who drive.

It’s a neat trick. and I’m glad nobody actually got hurt this time, but it’s still a threat to other people’s safety, and just because some people get away with it doesn’t mean we should stop challenging idiots who are obviously pissed because they are swerving across the road while singing Danny Boy.

We can't do anything about males who can disguise themselves sufficiently. Even if the law were on our side, there's nothing we can do. But there are precious few, if an. PL's profile pic right now even now looks male with make up.

I M sorry I do think PL is attractive but the latest pics do not nt bring out the female

The fact that women are at risk from male predators is why we have sex segregated spaces-I will fight to maintain them, and transexuals need to fight for the addition of gender neutral spaces. (Not expect us to welcome them into our women only spaces.)

I hate greedy, selfish men who think they have a right to decide who can get away with accessing women's spaces. They can all fuck off....NO MEN! 🤬🤬

I think the argument that if male transsexuals can't go in the women's irrespective of surgery then we have to accept passing transmen in there is rubbish. It isn't just about safety, it's also about discomfort and anxiety. Males rarely pass and therefore cause anxiety; passing FtM look like men and therefore cause anxiety. They can use the men's without problems if they pass. None of this is for women to sort out or accommodate. Male violence and our fear of it is not our fault.

I'm with Aspie on the slippery slope is now too bloody slippery.

No, I would not. To accept Buck would, by extension, be to accept any man

But the gender critical line is Buck isn't a man. He meets your (rad fem , gc , you ) definition of a biological woman. Every cell in his body is still xy and he has a vagina.

Now I don't think there is any possibility he will use the ladies' loo , but make your mind up. Zuzanna looks like a woman (I'm assuming she does not have a penis and has had surgery from the tenor of that argument)but you won't allow her in. Buck is, according to the rad fem definition, female, but you won't allow him in either.

Actually I get the feeling lots of transgender people (in the old sense of the term) don't want self ID either and have been saying so for a long time. I know as I've met a couple who said much of what is in this article. They should welcome a system that proves they are genuine, even if they will never actually become women.

I thought the BIG issue was about penises in women’s spaces? Zuzanna presumably doesn’t have one.

I don’t have a problem with actual genuine transsexuals who’ve gone through the whole medical/surgical/GRC process using women’s loos & changing rooms (& I doubt very much they’d be wanting to infiltrate eg refuges).

I thought the BIG issue was about penises in women’s spaces? Zuzanna presumably doesn’t have one.

I don't know which transpeople have a penis and which ones haven't. How can I possibly know? Seeing as though the vast majority of male transpeople do not have meaningful surgery, I'm going to assume that none of them do for my own safety.

ZuttZeVootEeVro just as we don't know for sure if a very masculine woman is exactly that or a transsexual with their penis removed. Some women do look quite manly including some of our most vocal allies but no-one would challenge their right to be there.

we don't know for sure if a very masculine woman is exactly that or a transsexual with their penis removed. Some women do look quite manly

I've never seen a butch woman and not known she was a woman. I've never seen an effeminate man and thought he was a woman.

I would feel very stressed by a man in an all female space, penis or not. You can’t check if someone has one !
Also a female single sex space means just that. Women and girls only.
Someone like Buck Angel is not a danger to men, and would prefer to use the Gents, surely ? The sex segregation is based on safety, so it isn’t comparable the other way round. Males in female space ? A threat. Females in male space ? Not a threat. Males who pass as female in female space ? Still a threat.