What about the transmen?

[PerverseConverse]

I've been wondering for a while about how transmen are doing and what their wishes and views are in a world where transwomen have the platform. Does anyone know? I feel really ignorant but I've not seen anything in the press or online and it's as though they don't matter somehow. I don't see them kicking up a fuss and demanding anything. Why is that?

On another thread (I'm a gay man AMA) the OP was asked several questions about trans issues and he declared TWAW: no conversation needed. Or no debate, whichever. Of particular interest was that he said transmen were men but because they had a vagina he wasn't attracted to them. He couldn't explain why apart from some nonsense comparing having a vagina to having a certain hair colour and preferring people with a different hair colour. He couldn't explain because without having to admit that if someone has a vagina then they can't be a man. In the end he got cross and said TWAW, TMAM and why aren't you asking about transmen, you're pretty sexist because you're not.

So whilst his thread got me thinking even more, I promise this isn't a TAAT!

Where are all the transmen? How many are there compared to transwomen? (I mean adults, not adolescents, btw as I think adolescent transboys (?) are worthy of a thread all to themselves as the issues there are so complex, yet in my opinion boils down to one thing: patriarchy. ) How are transmen affected in day to day life and by what is happening with regards to the GRA and TRAs?

They are so quiet in all this and their voices need to be heard. I fear they won't get one though as will be still classed as women and therefore not allowed a voice. I suspect people are more likely to accept thar transwomen are women but think of transmen as still women.

Hope I've made some sense in all that!

They also "pass" more easily, IMO

Well, they're the ones requiring us to be called menstruators, pregnant people, people with cervixes, etc., aren't they?

Two that we do hear about are Stephen Whittle and Fox Fisher. Both are firmly pro self-id, and Whittle is part of the group Press for Change, which I think was working behind the scenes to get the original GRA passed. Whittle is a traditional transsexual - originally a lesbian.

I'm not sure what either of their views are of transmen going into men's prisons. Whittle occasionally posts on here so may come along and tell us.

Going by those two, I'm not so sure that we should think of transmen as benign - did they transition because they hate women so much they couldn't even bear to be one?

My teenage DD and I were discussing this subject earlier today, as she's heard that one of her acquaintances is now identifying as male (and using a traditionally male name), but still has a feminine appearance/body, and apparently has a boyfriend - who presumably is attracted to their female body.

I agree that the issues are v. complex and I just hope that teens figuring out their identify today find happiness, however they decide to identify.

I've blathered a little about this on other threads - I've found that many of the transmen I've spoken to have been cowed into silence on online forums because they're continuously being shouted over, to the point where I've seen them being told to 'check their male privilege' and 'let the (trans)women have a voice'. On my university's student union trans ally page there's a note about 'gender policing':

Gender policing within the trans community

As a result of power dynamics within the trans community (i.e. white trans people and DFAB trans people having significant power over trans people of colour and DMAB trans people – and particularly over trans women of colour), as well as significant gatekeeping from both medical and legal institutions, there can often be a lot of gender policing directing at trans people (i.e. telling people what gender they can or can’t have or be or what they must do to qualify as their gender) that also comes from other trans people.

The paragraph clearly shows that my student union's line is that they're considered to have privilege over transwomen - a common sentiment I've seen online. The idea that someone 'has to have dysphoria to be trans' is one that I also see more commonly from transmen, who seem to me to be more likely to be 'transmedicalist' - believe that dysphoria is a mental illness with transition an alleviation of the symptoms, not a fix-all - and clearly treated here as a form of gatekeeping.

In light of these two issues, transmen are discouraged from speaking out on their own issues, as it would be an exercise of their 'male' privilege, and told to centre and promote transwomen to be good 'male' allies.

I absolutely shit you not when I say that I have frequently and persistently seen transmen told they have male privilege over transwomen. This includes when they passed as girls or women, prior to medical treatment and/or hormones, because transmen would have the privilege of 'male' socialisation in their childhood whilst the transwomen received 'female' socialisation - because transwomen are women, so they must have been socialised as girls.

I wish I was making that up.

Jeez, sometimes I wish my brain wouldn't come up with these questions but this whole subject is on my mind so much. My mum laughs and says oh god not this again when I tell her the latest madness but she's firmly on the GC rad fem side. Although I did upset her the other day by agreeing with someone that fairytales are sexist. But I digress.

Women can't do right, can they? Even when they are transmen. The misogyny always prevails. I feel under huge pressure to raise my 3 yo DS to not engage in misogynistic practices, to respect women, and never think that porn is ok.

This whole situation has gone from a puzzled WTF to something very sinister indeed. It scares me. I might need to take a break from here and facebook to settle my anxiety levels.

I can't help but think that transmen are vulnerable in a way that transwomen will never be vulnerable but that might be due to the issues surrounding adolescent girls transitioning more than any actual vulnerability.

I know someone who has started some aspects of social transition to male. There has been some bullying. I would not be surprised if in the future there were an ASD diagnosis bloody certain of it I just see such a pattern. What women and girls do gets no interest at all unless it is about being beautiful or sexual. Whatever men do, even if it beong feminine, is just more interesting. I think transmen suffer a great deal but it goes under the radar.

Not to mention how ROGD (mainly effecting girls) is dismissed by the TRAs as scaremongering - if gender dysphoria is such a painful thing (and I'm sure it is) why do they demand silence on this issue? Or links with autism? The narrative of a child killing themselves unless put on the path of gender reassignment doesn't follow this parent's story I found today on the GIDS website: gids.nhs.uk/parents-story-charlotte

They also "pass" more easily, IMO
Stephen Whittle passes in pictures. He's much smaller than most men. His arms are much smaller. He has pretty impressive facial hair, granted.
I'd argue that most butch lesbians can spot a transman at a hundred paces. I think they are perceived to pass because let's face it, nobody looks at short average looking bearded blokes do they? I am quite gender non-conforming and in bloke mode I am invisible. I can see the attraction for young girls wanting to opt out of the male gaze etc because it's very noticeable the way you can move through people as "male" without any eye contact, any interaction at all.
Tl;dr - I don't think they pass, I just think we don't notice them

Also some giveaways that I've noticed gay men mentioning - different torso length, different gait, different shaped bum!
Sleeves rolled up in the above pics probably because a collar size to fit means the sleeves are way too long unless you buy tailored shirts. Suit jackets rarely fit a transman that short but look less odd on a short man (even if sartorially the jacket is too long, a short man has different proportions).
Again, who's going to notice - except gay men weeding them out of online hookup/dating apps and butch lesbians because we recognise the similarities and the beard doesn't hide that.

That's a feminine posture but otherwise having never seen him before I'd have said man. The facial hair is really something! I'm guessing tw are jealous they don't pass as well.

Annandale I think that's a very acute observation;. "That women and girls get no attention unless it's about being beautiful or sexual". In other words as long as they are of interest to heterosexual men. The other side of that coin is you might see the appeal for some women/girls if they can opt out of the constant sexual scrutiny and judgement of typical men.

I do watch transmen videos on Youtube out of interest and to understand their point of view. But most seem to be very young (early 20s is the oldest) so those voices are very different to the dominant trans women voices who are much more likely to be older men in their 30s, 40s, 50s and above, many of whom married and had children before transitioning.

In general, their female socialisation shines through as they are usually quite calm and reasonable. I haven't seen one video where a trans man is throwing a tantrum or very angry, while that is quite a frequent occurrence in the trans women videos. They also either like consensus or are at least looking to make peace rather than war with GC women. They also seem to spend a lot of time socializing with other trans men and women. I have not seen one video with a regular heterosexual guy. So I wonder are they also basing their image of "men" on each other within a self-reinforcing bubble? They have quite a uniform: glasses, baseball caps, button downshirts with cute motives and bow ties.

For clothes sizing a lot of trans men online talk openly about shopping in the teen boy section or even younger for male style clothes that fit.

So I wonder are they also basing their image of "men" on each other within a self-reinforcing bubble? They have quite a uniform: glasses, baseball caps, button downshirts with cute motives and bow ties.
I wonder if there are any men who are insulted by this (in the way some GC women are insulted by the notion of woman-as-cosplay or woman-as-cosplay) or do they just laugh it off?

Is sex with a transman a fantasy for some heterosexual men, as a way of having a 'gay' experience whilst still being straight? Men who have sex with transwomen prostitutes often excuse this as a non-homosexual act also, and the TWAW mantra legitimises this. So much points towards assuaging male guilt - men encroaching on female territory and asserting dominance under the guise of femininity.

It seems from comments they make in their videos "props" like glasses and caps seem to send a "male" signal from a quick glance. These people are so young, and they read as young teen boys, often even into their mid 20s so I wonder how things will be once they really can't pass as a teen anymore? How does that affect your identity?

I don't see them kicking up a fuss and demanding anything.

Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors (1996) was a founding manifesto of transgenderism.

Stephen Whittle created the Gender Recognition Act and orchestrated the Women & Equalities Committee's report as special adviser. Whittle also was responsible for the Yogyakarta Principles which among things erase sexual orientation.

Jay Stewart, the prime mover behind Gendered Intelligence, has been extraordinarily effective in putting rapists in women's prisons, indoctrinating the university system, etc.

Any one of them has achieved more than Paris Lees, Munroe Bergdorf, Shon Faye, Lily Madigan et al. put together. Indeed, one might that the latter essentially served as a goady distraction while the transmen worked quietly to revolutionize institution.

Sorry to forget James Morton, who leads the Scottish Trans Alliance. Morton has revolutionized institutions in Scotland, including literally writing the rules for the prison service (the Word document on trans prisoners used by the prison service shows 'James Morton' as the author under file properties).

Am I right in describing The Yogyakarta Principles as a set of ideological principles that certain factions believe should be imposed on societies around the world without democratic due process, or is that an unfair characterisation?

I think thats a reasonable description of the Yogyakarta Principles, Ida. At least as far as the gender identity component is concerned. The sexual orientation aspect seems quite reasonable, but the 'gender identity' component goes much further than just a demand for full and equal human rights, and becomes a demand that governments recognise everyone's gender identity on all official documentation.

Transmen like James Morton and Stephen Whittle have done a lot of damage behind the scenes with regards to the GRA.

It was the despicable wolf in sheep’s clothing Morton who suggested that TRAs pretend to care about women’s and children’s rights on social media by eg retweeting women’s orgs.

So someone who is biologically female suggested these tactics?!

There aren't that many in comparison to everyone else in the population. Those who have completed trans'd just get on with it, they don't have a dick, they have some sort of vagina so they do their best and accept what they cannot accomplish in terms of sexual relationships.

The ones objected to by many women are the ones who are still quite obviously men.