What about the transmen?

[PerverseConverse]

I've been wondering for a while about how transmen are doing and what their wishes and views are in a world where transwomen have the platform. Does anyone know? I feel really ignorant but I've not seen anything in the press or online and it's as though they don't matter somehow. I don't see them kicking up a fuss and demanding anything. Why is that?

On another thread (I'm a gay man AMA) the OP was asked several questions about trans issues and he declared TWAW: no conversation needed. Or no debate, whichever. Of particular interest was that he said transmen were men but because they had a vagina he wasn't attracted to them. He couldn't explain why apart from some nonsense comparing having a vagina to having a certain hair colour and preferring people with a different hair colour. He couldn't explain because without having to admit that if someone has a vagina then they can't be a man. In the end he got cross and said TWAW, TMAM and why aren't you asking about transmen, you're pretty sexist because you're not.

So whilst his thread got me thinking even more, I promise this isn't a TAAT!

Where are all the transmen? How many are there compared to transwomen? (I mean adults, not adolescents, btw as I think adolescent transboys (?) are worthy of a thread all to themselves as the issues there are so complex, yet in my opinion boils down to one thing: patriarchy. ) How are transmen affected in day to day life and by what is happening with regards to the GRA and TRAs?

They are so quiet in all this and their voices need to be heard. I fear they won't get one though as will be still classed as women and therefore not allowed a voice. I suspect people are more likely to accept thar transwomen are women but think of transmen as still women.

Hope I've made some sense in all that!

jgrobinson that's very eye-opening

Rebecca I think you might be confusing transmen who are biological women with transwomen who are biological men.

Yes, the difference with transmen (biological females) is they are not usually a threat to women and definitely not a threat to men if they go into men's spaces.

While transwomen have been show to still statistically offend at the same rates as men and therefore are considered in the same way as other biological men.

There was a thread on this a while back started by someone who posts as Stephen Whittle (I assume it's genuine, but I might be being gullible) which might interest you

here

I agree that with facial hair and/or male pattern head hair, more trans men pass than trans women. That said, the photo of Caitlyn Jenner next to Stephen Whittle is striking.

This isn't going to sound nice but while transmen in their late teens/early 20s can have that edgy androgynous look I'm guessing that it doesn't age well without significant plastic surgery.

Also what could you do about a broad pelvis? I don't think there is cosmetic treatment for that and you can't diet away bone.

To me Stephen Whittle in those photos may pass as male but I'd suspect some kind of growth or endocrine disorder TBH.

I saw a sad post by tranmales asking for more acknowledgement. Their trans sisters started shouting them down... "men get enough attention" etc. Bizarre.

They only seem to be in the debate at all when pregnant / menstruating.

DD trans bestie doesn't want to go in male spaces, or in fact to be near males at all. Has no stereotypical male interests. Just doesn't want to be a girl.

That women and girls get no attention unless it's about being beautiful or sexual

Yes this. I've been very overweight at some stages of my life. I'm not now. As a bigger person there have been times I have literally felt invisible around men. I had no idea how much so until I lost a lot of weight. Suddenly I seem to be a person again now I look thinner. It's extraordinary.

I can see the appeal of being enby or trans male if it works in the same way to switch off the male gaze.

And yes to there being a uniform. It's very cute and youthful. Trans men do look very like teenage boys. It will be interesting to see what they look like as forty and 50 year olds.

I have a trans male friend who used to be a lesbian and radical feminist. They now post about how evil TERFs are. I find it incredibly strange how there can have been such a switch, it makes me feel distrustful because I don't know who the real person is, though when I look back I think they always struggled a bit with their own sense of themselves (sexual abuse as a child, in an abusive adult relationship).

Trans man I meant.

Well, they're the ones requiring us to be called menstruators, pregnant people, people with cervixes, etc., aren't they?

I think this is a misconception Grace. It’s often put about by TRAs that these phrases are about inclusion, but note that men are never called prostate owners or similar. If it was genuinely about inclusion, there’s no way TW would allow themselves to be excluded like this.

The converse is actually true. Women is replaced with other words as women must never, ever be used to mean women. It must always be used to mean “women plus anyone who identifies as a woman”. It’s all about changing the meaning of the word woman.

BardyBlar - I'm doing a bit of research on this and it's implications for artificial intelligence. There could be far greater implications than have yet been imagined for replacing the language so that women = women + TW + everyone else that fancies it. That's yet another reason why it's so important we don't use their language and keep on defining man and woman on biological terms.

KatVonGulag
DD trans bestie doesn't want to go in male spaces, or in fact to be near males at all. Has no stereotypical male interests. Just doesn't want to be a girl.

What a shame for teen girls, I have heard similar from teen re girl at girls' school who doesn't want to join the boys but says she's a boy. I may be being a little simplistic but I feel a decent psychologist ought to be able to root this out and get these girls having some sort of counselling/talking therapy instead. IF there was any inclination to take this route which it seems there isn't.
I'm sure it would be a good area for research.

CockBlocker your research area literally just made me shiver: I'm doing a bit of research on this and it's implications for artificial intelligence.

The only protection actual women have left if the mantra anyone can ‘be’ a woman.. is the common sense of people who know full well that TWATW and WAW. Two different categories with different needs. If a computer programme or robot or algorithm or whatever thinks that TWAW then actual women are fucked. And actually so are transwomen because their needs won’t be met either. Shit.

ChattyLion - exactly, there are so many layers to this that haven't been examined yet. Without wishing to sound like a conspiracy theorist, on the transwidows thread it became apparent that a lot of the MTF partners of the women posting work in IT, so they will no doubt already see the importance of how we use labels to organise data within algorithms. AI is omnipresent in day to day applications and the internet, for generating statistics etc and will only increase in its usage for generating statistics and informing new policies.

It’s insidious. So hard to see their end game. My mind can’t twist itself far enough.

What I wonder is are they really accepted as men. I mean us women are being bullied into accepting transwomen as real women but the same doesn't seem to be happening with men.

Also - where are all the transmen?

There's been a 4000% increase in girls being referred to gender clinics.

The trans lobby would have us believe all those girls would have been trans in previous generations too, it's just that we're more accepting now.

Well if that's true - where's the 4000% rise in middle aged transwomen?

Absolutely- it scares the crap out of me. And you are all absolutely right. Where are women and girls in all of this?

I think I read somewhere that transmen are only ever really considered as "lads" (as in eg stable lad, not as a colloquial synonym for men). They never acquire the full status of men.

It seems to matter not a jot which way up you stack gender, the biological sex hierarchy will always manifest more strongly than gender ID. Pointing at transmen's perceived privilege over TW smacks of classic DARVO to me.

TBH Chili that's what I suspected

It seems to matter not a jot which way up you stack gender, the biological sex hierarchy will always manifest more strongly than gender ID.

So the reality of biological sex is recognised over self-defined gender ?

Only if you're a man. The rest of us are just non-men

Are a 'non-man' ?

I don't recognise that. What is it ? As far as I am concerned adult humans are either men or women.

I think for older women it has always been much easier to ‘live as a man’ whilst still being a woman, if you see what I mean.
I know a number of older women, mostly lesbians, who never use make up, have their hair short, only ever wear trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts. Other than pissing standing up they are living as men. They just don’t believe they are men.

They just don’t believe they are men

Good for them.

Jrobinson i've been reflecting on your post about the actual achievements of transmen. I think my 'poor little transmen' post is a good example of my own sexist stereotyping of transmen as women, who therefore to me must be gentle and suffering and silenced. What if girls who find they are excellent organisers, objective, coolheaded and focused, experience either the physical visibility of being a teenage girl overriding all that, or the kind of 'ooh aren't you brainy' patronisation that girls who attempt to use their voices get, or that they are blocked from achieving much by institutional sexism until they present as male? Suddenly they are physically invisible and judged only on their achievements, and they find a huge liberation in that.