What about the transmen?

[PerverseConverse]

I've been wondering for a while about how transmen are doing and what their wishes and views are in a world where transwomen have the platform. Does anyone know? I feel really ignorant but I've not seen anything in the press or online and it's as though they don't matter somehow. I don't see them kicking up a fuss and demanding anything. Why is that?

On another thread (I'm a gay man AMA) the OP was asked several questions about trans issues and he declared TWAW: no conversation needed. Or no debate, whichever. Of particular interest was that he said transmen were men but because they had a vagina he wasn't attracted to them. He couldn't explain why apart from some nonsense comparing having a vagina to having a certain hair colour and preferring people with a different hair colour. He couldn't explain because without having to admit that if someone has a vagina then they can't be a man. In the end he got cross and said TWAW, TMAM and why aren't you asking about transmen, you're pretty sexist because you're not.

So whilst his thread got me thinking even more, I promise this isn't a TAAT!

Where are all the transmen? How many are there compared to transwomen? (I mean adults, not adolescents, btw as I think adolescent transboys (?) are worthy of a thread all to themselves as the issues there are so complex, yet in my opinion boils down to one thing: patriarchy. ) How are transmen affected in day to day life and by what is happening with regards to the GRA and TRAs?

They are so quiet in all this and their voices need to be heard. I fear they won't get one though as will be still classed as women and therefore not allowed a voice. I suspect people are more likely to accept thar transwomen are women but think of transmen as still women.

Hope I've made some sense in all that!

@Sawdust, I agree, there are men and women but I think the trans ideology reduces people to men and non-men by lumping everyone who doesn't identify as male into the then meaningless women category.

We cannot speak for Transmen but the general impression from videos on YouTube that they create is most are not socializing with men, most seem to continue to socialize with women and the LBTQ folk, although again not those who are heterosexual men I.e, majority of men.

The very small percentage that are tall and pass very successfully as a heterosexual guy will go into spaces with “regular guys”. The majority who will pass perhaps as shorter, young, pubescent males stay out of those spaces because they won’t pass with men and won’t feel safe.

And yes there seems to be a very intense and deliberate push to redefine and break down the boundaries of the word women. Posie is right on the money, that’s where we need to focus because losing our own right to self definition is extremely dangerous.

I think and I hope she is expanding that campaign, because most women are no idea this is happening. I will definitely be willing to keep crowdfunding her efforts to keep this debate in the public eye.

The word “Women” is where they should be “no debate” it should never include people with penises.

There's been a 4000% increase in girls being referred to gender clinics.

The trans lobby would have us believe all those girls would have been trans in previous generations too, it's just that we're more accepting now.

I would have been one of those girls but now I'm a middle aged woman perfectly comfortable in my female body (well I'd like it to be a bit less knackered but definitely not male)

There was a transman at a place that I used to work. He was a bald, bearded, overweight, middle aged short guy and had been married to his wife for over ten years. He passes as a man so is a bit invisible.

I know a number of older women, mostly lesbians, who never use make up, have their hair short, only ever wear trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts. Other than pissing standing up they are living as men.

So...having short hair and only wearing trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts maketh a person a 'man', eh?

Allow me to say I think that's stereotypical nonsense.

So...having short hair and only wearing trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts maketh a person a 'man', eh?

That is the exact opposite of what I was trying to say.

Someone who is trans, but hasn’t had any operation will say they are ‘living as a man/woman’ because then wear the clothes of the opposite sex and behave in stereotypical ways for that sex.
How is that different to a lesbian who has relationships with women, doesn’t wear any of the stereotypical trappings of being a woman and does a typically male job?
That lesbian will not say she is a man yet everything that she is doing is what a trans man will do and say they are a man.

Someone who is trans, but hasn’t had any operation will say they are ‘living as a man/woman’ because then wear the clothes of the opposite sex and behave in stereotypical ways for that sex.

It's still, however, stereotypical nonsense.

The only way you can "live as a man" is if you are, in fact, biologically a man.

I completely agree Eadie.

I question what ‘living as a woman’ means also.

In my opinion the whole ‘I don’t like pink fluffy things therefore I am male’ thing is the worst kind of stereotypical nonsense.

VisitorsEntrance
I'm glad you clarified because I was about to challenge you, less politely, on the same thing.

So I can't be a TERF because I'm technically living as a man
I love it - perfect debate ammo

I question what ‘living as a woman’ means also.

Indeed!

iirc, Sheila Jeffreys argues that transmen are typically overlooked because they are at the lowest point in the sex caste system. I have a vague feeling that she expounded on this at one of the WPUK or similar meetings and there's a video. Does this ring a bell for anyone else?

It looks like Morton and Whittle might be interesting instances where they are very influential in a fairly invisible way (as in, under the radar) whereas other transmen tend towards the invisible.

I suppose a transwoman has the option of glamming up with make up, nails, long hair and dresses and being tall is an advantage here. I can't think what the equivalent would be for a transman unless they were lucky enough to have a naturally tall masculine appearance.

I expect most look more like LeFou than Gaston.

Uterus transplants - transmen would make good candidates “socially, legally and biologically.”

What does that mean? Why is “socially” relevant to organ donation, isn’t it more a physiological thing?

XX trans people end up having to have hysterectomies due to the damage done to their organs by testosterone.

A damaged organ is of no use, so is this a proposal to remove their healthy organs before any damage can be done? Leaving them no possibility of desisting and remaining fertile?

I sometimes wish I had never heeded trans people's demand that I educate myself. The more I learn the more horrified I am.

They're quietly living their lives. Only men decide that they aren't happy just living As a TW they must SCREAM IT. They're used to so much privilege (particularly whit middle class TW like David Thomas) that they can't bear to see it be eroded.

TM are used to being second class, they don't realise it's any different

@GraceTheDisgrace I don't think they are though... I think TW demand that so they don't feel excluded. TM just seem to get on with it

They may have been ‘quiet’ but see the damage ftm people have inflicted on other biological women :

24/10/2018 01:03 jgrobinson

I don't see them kicking up a fuss and demanding anything.

Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors (1996) was a founding manifesto of transgenderism.

Stephen Whittle created the Gender Recognition Act and orchestrated the Women & Equalities Committee's report as special adviser. Whittle also was responsible for the Yogyakarta Principles which among things erase sexual orientation.

Jay Stewart, the prime mover behind Gendered Intelligence, has been extraordinarily effective in putting rapists in women's prisons, indoctrinating the university system, etc.

Any one of them has achieved more than Paris Lees, Munroe Bergdorf, Shon Faye, Lily Madigan et al. put together. Indeed, one might that the latter essentially served as a goady distraction while the transmen worked quietly to revolutionize institution

I have watched soooo many videos where trans men - ie women - have shared their journey. And it's heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking in their dysphoria (which lots of us can relate to), and also in their freakish surgery with mostly bad outcomes.
My heart is ripped 💔

I think there are "Transmen" who are effectively promoting a benign appearing Trans movement, talking to organisations about the need for young people to transition and that the rest of us have to address them "correctly " change our facilities and so on. Despite the beards they don't pass most of the time, but are seen as less threatening and are invited more often to talk about the issues, without mentioning the way that women and girls are systematically oppressed . There are definitely job opportunities in the field.

2B Arnold

Are they wanting to take out the wombs of vulnerable teenage girls now? That really takes away any arguement that they didnt realise these children are being made infertile without the ability to consent.

Heartbreaking

Are these healthy young wombs being used for donation/experimental purposes?

I wonder, because it then becomes an altruistic act.

I would suggest that further research in Patrick Califia and Raven Kaldera might be of interst to those readers interested in the liminal space where new age / neo-pagan / sex cults and transgender issues merge.