Genuine question

[mama1234567]

Hi I am after genuine opinions, I wasn't sure whether to post in here or in health but as it isn't a health question as such I thought maybe here.....if it's the wrong section please just say. I have also namechanged but am a long time user and poster.
A close young male relation of mine was born with a rare genetic issue that basically means that although he is genetically male (this has been DNA tested) he doesn't have a penis, no visible testicles and is incontinent as his bladder didn't form properly. For several reasons not relevant constructive surgery so far has not proved very successful so the current focus is on helping him achieve continence as this is more important for him day to day. He came to me very distressed the other day as someone who he considered a friend and who seems to be involved feminist crowd, basically said he was fine to attend a woman's group as he isn't really male as men have penises.
At school the focus has very much been on biological sex which includes the fact that men have penises, women don't as a means of definition and within the trans debate which they have been gathering opinions on.
Basically I'm just looking for advice as to how to advise him? as you can imagine this is extremely sensitive. And if anyone has a better definition I could share with him?

Thank you.

A feminist, from a woman's group has invited your friend to join the group. What's the problem?

How to advise him.on what exactly? He's male, obviously he has a disability but he's male. We also learn that people have 2 legs and 2 arms but there are some people that don't. They're still people. Just explain that to him.

If this is genuine, then OP's friend has my sympathies because one of the many upsetting things about this issue is the way intersex conditions are being appropriated, politicised and then weaponised as part of the trans-extremist agenda, despite intersex people having spoken up and asked to be left alone.

He's chromosomally male with a rare medical condition.

I've had my uterus, ovaries and cervix removed but I know that the statement 'women have reproductive organs' doesn't mean I'm male. I am a female adult who had a medical condition and needed surgery. I remain chromosomally female, socialised as female.

Good grief. How awful that everyone is denying his masculinity just because of his condition! Penis or not, he deserves to stand proud as a man, in exactly the same way that post hysterectomy women can stand proud as women.
Poor bloke.

Oh you’re wanting some support for an intersex person?

www.ukia.co.uk

OP, you seem to be having a problem with interpreting English.
The statement “Women don’t have penises” is true. They don’t.
The converse statement “Anything without a penis is a woman” is not true.
Similarly, horses don’t have wings.
Anything without wings is not, however, a horse.

Non commutative statements.
Hth.

Schools have feminist groups now?! Was this in the UK or do you mean school like university?

How did his friend know about his disability? It's a massive betrayal of his trust if he told her and that's what she said. Tell him to find better friends.

My sympathies to your relative OP. What you describe sounds very distressing. I think his parents need to have a firm word with the school if he is being bullied for his medical condition. The intersex link above should help wrt accessing support. It has nothing to do with the current issue around the GRA.

fermatstheorum that's it entirely, the whole issue seems to be so polarised and he is struggling to understand where he fits into the whole debate. He is not yet really old or mature enough to completely understand the complexities but a lot of the Public focus is on physical attributes, which is causing him upset.

pennydrew Thank you for that link I will take a look.

Babdoc actually that is helpful, his school seems focused on the penis/uterus definition.

The issue was a friend of his said in the context of a trans debate that he was welcome as a 'woman' or as a man without a penis. He is just male and found the situation upsetting.

He's chromosomally male with a rare medical condition.

Precisely. The use of disorders of development to prove totally mainstream men, even ones who have fathered DC, are really women because "sex is a spectrum" is responsible for what your relative has experienced. I'm so sorry this happened to him. I'm not surprised he's upset.

Here on Mumsnet we've seen AWA posters saying women who've had hysterectomies are really men. It very much distressed some of the women who were affected. It's ugly wherever you find it.

He is male! And highly insensitive of the 'friend' to infer otherwise, if it is Penile Agenisis (born without a penis) then it is covered under intersex conditions and you should be able to find help through Intersex orgs, he is not alone out there but sounds like he needs to access support from the Intersex Community, who understand these issues completely.

The issue was a friend of his said in the context of a trans debate that he was welcome as a 'woman' or as a man without a penis.

It sounds as though the school need to get a grip and to inform themselves about what his disability means? I take it it's an intersex condition?

There are many and varied resources for intersex people. The school needs to get a better understanding and communicate that to staff and pupils.

It has nothing to do with being transgender.

Women are not just "non-men" which seems to be the trap the "friend" is falling into. The implication being that with incomplete male genitalia he is not a "real man" therefore must be a women. Which is quite frankly disgusting and offensive on every level.

*woman

That sounds like a very unusual and tragic situation. Presumably he was observed as female at birth, and brought up as a girl, until something prompted a DNA test and he then chose to identify as male. How old is he?

unfortunately this is real, though i rather wish it wasn't
Datun his drs are actually not keen to use the word intersex they tend to describe it as simply a physical abnormality or disability akin to being born with one leg for example. But I agree his school are definitely not helping here.

The feminist group is one this friend attends out of school, it is called a red tent woman circle, and they have a teenage division.

I agree completely that this isn't a trans issue, he is not trans or otherwise confused he is a male.
But the current climate is drawing attention and questions he is finding deeply upsetting. He has always been fairly open and honest with those close to him and about his condition we have always reiterated strongly that that choice is his but that he has nothing to be ashamed of.

I wish mumsnet would reconsider the no troll-hunting rules.

OP, I've reported your post for MNHQ to check you over. If they decide that you are indeed a long term name changer with a relative possessing an unknown medical condition without male genitalia who is old enough to have been invited to a school feminist group because something and who is too young to understand complexities and whose schoolmates are all apprised of his lack of penis and bring it into discussion regularly, whose school discuss penis/uterus distinctions with regard to him personally,
and whose relative chose to solicit advice from the MN fwr boards on his behalf then I will happily engage with my very best advice.