Genuine question

[mama1234567]

Hi I am after genuine opinions, I wasn't sure whether to post in here or in health but as it isn't a health question as such I thought maybe here.....if it's the wrong section please just say. I have also namechanged but am a long time user and poster.
A close young male relation of mine was born with a rare genetic issue that basically means that although he is genetically male (this has been DNA tested) he doesn't have a penis, no visible testicles and is incontinent as his bladder didn't form properly. For several reasons not relevant constructive surgery so far has not proved very successful so the current focus is on helping him achieve continence as this is more important for him day to day. He came to me very distressed the other day as someone who he considered a friend and who seems to be involved feminist crowd, basically said he was fine to attend a woman's group as he isn't really male as men have penises.
At school the focus has very much been on biological sex which includes the fact that men have penises, women don't as a means of definition and within the trans debate which they have been gathering opinions on.
Basically I'm just looking for advice as to how to advise him? as you can imagine this is extremely sensitive. And if anyone has a better definition I could share with him?

Thank you.

I don't know how closely you've followed the trans threads on here, Mama, but one recurring theme is how much the extreme transactivist position relies on "appropriation", or stealing other people's experiences and making them your own (transactivists as opposed to old-school transsexuals trying to deal with bodily dysphoria as best they can - people towards whom I think many of us feel a lot of sympathy. I quite like the analogy that old-school transsexuals come to womanhood as refugees, transactivists come to womanhood as colonisers.)

So, the most obvious one is appropriating women's biology (the claim that they are literally female).

Also appropriating sexual stereotypes, and turning them from something we women have spent our whole lives fighting against into something "desirable", something that marks you out as "womanly" (see for instance Paris Lees writing about being cat-called in the street, or Jane Fae on women's hour talking about unshaven legs as "dirty").

But also - appropriating intersex conditions (to muddy the waters over the "literally women" issue by trying to make out that biological sex is fearfully complicated and not well understood).

Or - appropriating the black civil rights movement in America by claiming that women wanting to keep male-bodied part-time cross-dressers like Travis Ablanza out of women's spaces (spaces we need to escape from male harassment, not as a way of trying to set ourselves up as "better than men") is like white people excluding black people from the front seats of the bus.

The whole movement is like a rendition of Pulp's Common People on continuous loop.

Unfortunately your relative has become the latest piece of collateral damage in this project.

Datun yes he is upset his biological sex is in question and that he seems to be viewed as trans or as being related to the trans issue and he is struggling to deal with that. Think aged around early teens.

And this is why the intersex soc don't want to be associated with transgender and why transactivists who appropriate DSDs are utterly selfish.

One of the intersex societies has gone on record, in a public letter on the Internet to say that transgenderism and intersex are completely different. Unfortunately, I looked for the letter the other day and couldn't find it. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

It might help your friend to have the knowledge that this letter demonstrates. That the two conditions are completely different. So he can relay that information to others. Including his school. Who sound rather ill-equipped at the moment.

That's the first thing.

The other thing is to give the school some specific, scientific/medical information about his condition. I can't quite understand why that hasn't been done already.

The problem is, in terms of this young woman and other people in his peer group, you can't argue particularly well with stupid when it is determined to remain so.

If they can't grasp that intersex and trans are different, I still maintain his best defence is to say he identifies as male.

mama1234567 I'm sorry you have had such criticism for even asking. Someone genetically male is male, albeit there is a mechanism to change your birth certificate. Beyond that I doubt you will get much useful info here. FWR are clued up on the trans debate but this is different altogether. I wish you well supporting him.

It's an incredibly difficult subject to get support for across the board, as my friends with the child with hypospadias have mentioned to me. Discussion boards like this one - even if you posted in general health, people are often a bit about questions about genitals (with good reason - there are trolls who like to troll about that sort of thing ).

If they go to online support groups for adults with hypospadias, these tend to be largely made up of men who, sadly, are unhappy about their past medical treatment and/or outcomes - so a self-selecting group of the people who have had problems, rather than a representative cross-section of men as a whole with that condition (and obviously, my friends would like to get in touch with adults some of whom are able to say "yeah, I'm fine with it, grew up normally, happily married, everything works just fine both from my perspective and, from what she tells me, from my wife's too" - they want to get a sense of how many men are fine as adults, and how many struggle, so they can best support their son, and it's really hard to find this.)

It's not an easy issue at all.

Sorry - should add "and that's for hypospadias, which is a relatively mild condition" - your relative's condition is obviously much more severe and complex to handle, and presumably, as something even rarer much less likely to have peer support groups.

pennydrew intersex is a huge misnomer for many of the conditions that ostensibly fall under the banner.

It's pretty unhelpful really and I'm not sure how many people with those specific conditions would ever use the term. They are much more likely to use the name of their own syndrome.

A bit like telling me that my early menopause and type 1 diabetes are both endocrine abnormalities. They are, but utterly different, and so referenced to by the specific diagnosis, not the area of medicine they fall under.

Barracker yes, I hear you. I don’t know enough about the subject, but I have an endocrine disorder, well a few, and I do name them all separately as they are all different. Now if only the symptoms weren’t so similar I would know which condition is causing the problems and when! Without tests tests and more tests.

Saying women don’t have penises isn’t the same as saying anyone without a penis is therefore a woman.

The absence of a penis is a necessary but not suffient condition for being a woman.

mama1234567

It's unclear from your OP but did this girl actually invite your young relative to her Red Tent event? If so, I would go with the advice I gave above: get him to tell her that he a) identifies as a boy so the invitation is not appropriate and b) to remember this going forward because clear boundaries.

Or did she just make this assertion - oh, you haven't got a penis so you'd fit right in at my Red Tent - out of nowhere? Because if that's what it is, then I would definitely regard this as behaviour that the school should be involved it. At the very least it is intrusive and disrespectful and at worst it is outright bullying.

At the very least it is intrusive and disrespectful and at worst it is outright bullying.

I agree. Isn't red tenting to do with menstruation?

Poor lad, bullying is awful. There are absolutely medical conditions which can present like this.
I imagine based on his age that his class are likely to do the biology part of sex education in the next few years? I'd suggest that his family might want to talk this through with his teachers beforehand. Male anatomy includes lots of internal structures and hormones which will affect his whole body as he goes through puberty and beyond. Even though one part of that (his penis) didn't develop as usual, other parts of his body will still have been developing as male since he was a tiny blob of cells.
There are many resources available for disabled people who might be concerned about their ability to have sex. If there's a particular organisation for his impairment, they are likely to have dealt with issues around sexuality before, and may well have useful leaflets about it. I would suggest at least letting the young man know that these exist, and telling him that many people enjoy sex in all sorts of ways which do not necessarily involve a penis. If he's early secondary school, he is probably getting lots of unhelpful rumours from classmates and maybe nonsense from porn, which will be even less helpful to him than to most young people.
You might find a helpful role model in Mik Scarlett, who is very open about having impotence as a result of his impairment, but who has been married for decades, and has written extensively on sex and disabled people. Some of his writing is explicit, some might be suitable for a younger teenager who just needs to know that there's someone like them who is happy and successful.
mosaicscience.com/story/ten-myths-about-sex-and-disability/

Isn't red tenting to do with menstruation?

Yes. I wouldn't describe Red Tent as a feminist network. More sacred essence stuff.

Hmmm. I have never known that one of the problems with an intersex condition was incontinence, so I'm googling... So far, all I'm seeing as the only explanation for intersex + incontinence is that when the child was born, the parents agreed to surgery to make the kid look more male or female, and in the process, the kidney was damaged.

So all of this "the doctors still won't use the phrase intersex in his presence" is a bit... odd.

Anyway, still googling and still reading the thread. I would say that his "friend" has a very liberal feminist understanding of intersex and I would advise him to get smarter friends.

Also, he probably didn't explain the problem very well to his friend, if he didn't mention the word intersex. Which he probably didn't, if his doctors don't.

This isn't the 1800's. Why exactly is everyone involved with this kid afraid to use the word, and why is OP acting like a mysterious Victorian prude whose only concern is whether or not he is accepted by some random group of feminists as a man or a woman.

Can I call bullshit? cos I'm calling bullshit. Google tells me that if this guy is suffering from incontinence as a result of an intersex conversion surgery gone wrong 20 years ago, he's got WAY more pressing issues to focus on.

From what I'm picking up from OP, it isn't an intersex condition, which is why you aren't finding it if you're googling intersex conditions (not intersex because nothing wrong with the chromosomes). I think (having googled around a bit) I may have worked out what the condition is, but as OP doesn't want it named, and it is rare enough that it would be potentially identifying, I think we should respect that.

But I agree - he needs better friends. And a lot of support from family and his decent friends. And decent support at school (including the school explaining to the daft girl who started all this that medical confidentiality is very important.)

His bottom has been leaking urine for 20 years -- why is he only now trying to find a solution?

This thread makes no sense.

Ah okay. Thank you Fermats and of course, apologies to the OP.

Wish you had explained more of this in your initial post OP, surely you had to know that some posters would assume you were, er... "taking the piss". Frankly, I'm still not convinced but whatever.

Datun - as far back as 2003 intersex organisations were trying to distance themselves from the growing trans lobby....!

Were you thinking of this statement from the Intersex Society of North America?

Everything bolded below is what the OP has said.

A close young male relation of mine was born with a rare genetic issue that basically means that although he is genetically male (this has been DNA tested) he doesn't have a penis, no visible testicles and is incontinent as his bladder didn't form properly. For several reasons not relevant constructive surgery so far has not proved very successful so the current focus is on helping him achieve continence as this is more important for him day to day.

his drs are actually not keen to use the word intersex they tend to describe it as simply a physical abnormality or disability akin to being born with one leg for example.

He has always been fairly open and honest with those close to him and about his condition we have always reiterated strongly that that choice is his but that he has nothing to be ashamed of.

yes he is upset his biological sex is in question and that he seems to be viewed as trans or as being related to the trans issue and he is struggling to deal with that. Think aged around early teens.

There is another component to his condition that I have not mentioned at all which is why I am avoiding the name.

So he was born with no dick, no testicles and chronic incontinence since birth, and doesn't know how he should relate to society given the public's interest in transgenderism.

The problem is his doctors refusal to be clear, and that nervousness surrounding the issue is trickling down and infecting his entire family and his ability to correctly name and deal with his condition. Either he has an intersex condition or he doesn't. He was born with no dick, no testicles and chronic incontinence since birth, so a reasonable person would ask -- how can he NOT be intersex?

Intersex is not something to be ashamed of. Being intersex doesn't mean that he can't call himself a man, if that is how he was raised.

I still think this thread is taking the piss.

OlennasWimple

I don't think it was those links, actually.

I seem to remember it was a coloured background (beige) and it was a description of their run in with GIRES. Quite long. And damning.

Perhaps it's be deleted.

been

The so-called "feminist" who thinks this young man is a woman because of lack-of-penis has a very weird and warped view of womanhood and needs to educate herself on feminism. Women are not incomplete men. A boy without a winkle is not, despite what Nursey in Blackadder asserts, a girl.

This must be stressful and upsetting for both your relative and the family. So much so that you reached out here! I hope that despite the initially frosty reception you find what you need.

I agree with previous posters that your first port of call should be the school. They must understand that his condition has nothing to do with trans issues but is a completely unrelated medical disorder, a kind of disability for want of a better word.

Every school has certain obligations when it comes to dealing with pupils who have medical conditions. But I know from a friend of mine that sometimes no matter how hard you try, they simply do not understand rare conditions. All you can do is keep on talking to them and not give up. You must stress (even though this shouldn't be necessary) that he is unequivocally male, genetically male, brought up as male and not identifying as a girl so the school should not disrespect him by equivocating his condition with transgender issues.

Seeing as he is in his early teens, I think it is time to try and find a support group (I do realise that this may be difficult given the rarity of his condition). If there are none dedicated to his condition or to a cluster of similar conditions, it may be worth asking if intersex organisations know of a suitable support group - if you tell them that you know this is not an intersex condition but that you were hoping that they might be able to point you in the right direction it is unlikely that they will mind.

I have approached support groups myself before not being entirely sure if they were the right one for the issue at hand and have never had a negative reaction to that. And a few times they were actually very helpful in directing me accordingly.

A support group or even just a network of families in a similar situation can be very helpful. Sometimes just talking to another family whose child is older is incredibly reassuring (and often informative at the very least on what might be best avoided). The next few years will be tricky to navigate and knowing you are not alone is a comfort to many who suffer from particular conditions. Even if he - as you say - is not himself mature enough for a support group and may not be for some time to come, the family may find this beneficial in the long run.

Also, I can only agree with the others that the young female in question overstepped a number of boundaries. This may have been a deliberate barb or an unthinking remark or a heartfelt if misguided kindness. Nonetheless, she will need to be told that this was offensive and why.

And last but not least, if you haven't already, some form of counselling may be appropriate going forwards. Either for him and for him and the family. This won't get easier for a while, and the transgender debate is here to stay for some time, too, so he needs armour and tools to deal with this.

Isn't red tenting to do with menstruation?

Well that's certainly how the movement came about. Taking a place where women were ostracised during menstruation and turning it into a positive woman only space. However, I just checked the Red Tent Assoc website and they now welcome anyone who uses the pronoun "she". Wonder why those ostracised women didnt simply identify themselves out of that tent in the first place? Oh yeah, biology.

I haven't read all the replies but it sounds to me that:

1. the school need to receive a Dr's letter explaining the medical condition and that he is definitely male.

2.this lad may benefit from some counselling so he can feel stronger within himself about who he is.