Genuine question

[mama1234567]

Hi I am after genuine opinions, I wasn't sure whether to post in here or in health but as it isn't a health question as such I thought maybe here.....if it's the wrong section please just say. I have also namechanged but am a long time user and poster.
A close young male relation of mine was born with a rare genetic issue that basically means that although he is genetically male (this has been DNA tested) he doesn't have a penis, no visible testicles and is incontinent as his bladder didn't form properly. For several reasons not relevant constructive surgery so far has not proved very successful so the current focus is on helping him achieve continence as this is more important for him day to day. He came to me very distressed the other day as someone who he considered a friend and who seems to be involved feminist crowd, basically said he was fine to attend a woman's group as he isn't really male as men have penises.
At school the focus has very much been on biological sex which includes the fact that men have penises, women don't as a means of definition and within the trans debate which they have been gathering opinions on.
Basically I'm just looking for advice as to how to advise him? as you can imagine this is extremely sensitive. And if anyone has a better definition I could share with him?

Thank you.

jarveau I don't want to give specifics but he was tested not long after birth because of his physical presentation so has always been raised as male and as a boy.

june yes I agree it is offensive on every level.

This is an upsetting issue, OP. Friends of mine have a son with hypospadias (similarly not strictly speaking "intersex" but rather a cosmetic defect of the penis). It too has been appropriated by trans-activists (in their unending search to artificially inflate the number of "intersex" complaints to bolster their biology-denialist claims that sex is a spectrum). My friends are worried about the prospect that some numpty will add to their son's pre-existing distress about his unusual anatomy by telling him he's "not really a boy/not fully a boy" or some such crap.

It is very, very upsetting.

You've just discussed his penis and testicles or lack thereof on a board read by millions and NOW you're coy about naming the medical syndrome he possesses? Because THAT is too revelatory?

Rightho.

If your friend presents as a boy, and everyone knows he's a boy, with a disability and he's been invited to a women's group, I still don't see the problem? Does he want to go?

Are you saying these feminists are only inviting him because he doesn't have a penis?

Cos I don't believe it.

You stated earlier that a female friend, I would be interested in the age we are discussing, said he could join the out of school women’s circle, as part of a ‘trans debate’. Why did this young man raise it as part of a trans debate? If he’s intersex? I’m not really following this story and I hope you haven’t raised a sensitive topic to troll us as I gave you a link in good faith. I have a teenager and she says that they really don’t ‘debate’ trans issues at school because of the sensitive nature. Did this happen at school?

Barracker like you I am interested to know MN's take on this. But occasionally there are cases of hypospadias coupled with micropenis so severe that a male baby is wrongly identified as female at birth. (The vast majority of cases of hypospadias are nowhere near this severe, but it does sometimes happen).
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17364457

Hypospadias itself is not that unusual - about 1 in 300 male births. It's also not a DSD, more like a variation in normal male anatomy (men with it have normal gonads, normal spermatogenesis and are usually fertile).

The analogy I usually use in connection with its appropriation by TRAs is it's as if I tried to compare my tongue tie (minor birth defect, causes very minor speech impairment) with the severe language delay and global developmental delay of a friend's child who had a chromosomal trisomy. I.e. it's not the same thing at all. But it suits TRAs to pretend it's the same thing because they want to make out loads of people are intersex (they sometimes include women with PCOS ffs!) Which is unfair to intersex people (because most trans people are biologically typical members of their birth sex and thus have nothing to do with being born intersex) and unfair to people with issues such as hypospadias (who may be struggling psychologically with the appearance of their genitals, and certainly don't want their condition politicised as well).

KatVonGulag

Schools have feminist groups now?! Was this in the UK or do you mean school like university?

Yes some do, my daughters secondary school do and labelled me a bigot for calling them out on a post appropriating Polynesian culture- I’m Polynesian. Once I explained I was Polynesian and a parent of the school, and that they appropriated and rewrote Samoan culture, which I would be reporting to school, they apologised and removed the offensive post 😬 Fa’ afafine is rooted in homophobia and caused enormous suffering to gay Samoan men.

Afternoon, everyone. We just wanted to pop by to confirm that the OP has been on Mumsnet a number of years without incident. We obviously can't ever say with 100% certainty that anyone on the internet is who they say they are but we've no reason to disbelieve this poster's story.

Please could we remind everyone that troll-hunting breaks Talk Guidelines and really never helps a situation. Please just hit the report button if you have concerns.

Hi I have asked Mumsnet to verify this. Unfortunately it is true, of course his condition has a name, and he has an age but I am trying not to be too identifying here. I am genuine and asked in good faith. I thank everyone who tried to help. This is a rare and very upsetting for my relation (again I am being deliberately vague) . I thought this might be the place to ask for intelligent kind opinions, I've never personally encountered anything else on here before.
I'm sorry if I misjudged and caused upset,

HebeMumsnet thank you.
I'm sorry if I caused any fuss.
I was just genuinely seeking advice, obviously I misjudged this board.

Mama - It's not about misjudging the board. It's about knowing how often we are trolled on here. And how often intersex conditions are used as a gotcha against women here who don't want their boundaries dismantled.

If you are looking for words your friends can use, you need to be little bit more explicit.

Your friend is male, a man without a penis is not a woman, that is offensive.

What is the outcome you are looking for, then we might be able to give you some words to use.

If indeed you are genuine, it’s not you causing the upset, it’s those who troll and deliberately raise issues like this to upset women here- not to mention appropriating intersex people’s lives.

I find it hard to answer further without knowing the age because that affects the type of conversation you can have. But I don’t think this is the right place to ask, it’s so rare that it’s unlikely any of us have direct experience. I think the problem has come about because of the way TRA’s have confused the conversation by appropriating intersex conditions and drawing parallels between them. This has confused everyone including, clearly, this young girl from the feminist group . I would advise seeking more professional help, discussions with school perhaps and possibly a support group. I think sometimes it helps to have contact with others in similar situations. My DD has a female teacher with Aspergers, like her, which has helped heaps.

Right. So we have a rather unthinking teenage friend of your young relative, who has likely bought into all this woke nonsense about some women have penises and has invited your young relative to her woo-woo new age Red Tent teen meeting because of it? Yes?

Since his condition appears to be well known among his circle, I would advise you to tell him to explain to this girl in her own terms: he has a physical condition but identifies as a boy, so she's very kind to ask him but he'd rather not attend and could she avoid making assumptions about him going forward. He should assert his boundaries very clearly.

In practical terms, OP, I'm not sure what you can do aside from make sure you follow up the various medical papers on his condition so you can reassure him that he is male and there's no question about that.

Also try to get the school on board - the young woman who made the suggestion in the first place needs to have it explained to her that what she is doing is (a) invading someone else's privacy when it comes to their medical history, (b) trying to appropriate someone else's medical history to further her own political beliefs and (c) being bloody unkind - and she needs to stop, right now, or face some consequences of her actions. Throw the whole weight of the school's anti-bullying policy at this one.

Thank you, as I said I apologise for putting this in the wrong place, a misjudgment on my part. I just genuinely thought as a social issue rather than a health one per se this might be the place to ask.
I meant no offence.

Thank you to everyone who has offered links and advice.

Also try to get the school on board - the young woman who made the suggestion in the first place needs to have it explained to her that what she is doing is (a) invading someone else's privacy when it comes to their medical history, (b) trying to appropriate someone else's medical history to further her own political beliefs and (c) being bloody unkind - and she needs to stop, right now, or face some consequences of her actions.

This.

Do stick around, Mama - as others have said, we get trolled a lot and can be on a bit of a hair trigger on these issues.

What does he want, your friend? Does he want not to be thought of as transgender? Is the upset that his biological sex is in question?

I agree with the previous post that said it's difficult to know what to say without knowing the age. An adult or late teen needs to be armed with some medical knowledge and to have the self-assurance to tell this girl she is talking out of her arse.

A youngster, is a different matter.

And I completely agree with Lang that telling other young people he identifies as male should end it right there. They would have been socialised never to question it.

OP, a relative of mine has a syndrome that is considered intersex. She attends a clinic regularly for it.
Without knowing the name of the syndrome you are referring to I can't point you to any specific advice or support networks. I will say that it doesn't make sense that you have revealed a great deal about personal details of genitalia, gonads and incontinence, yet you think naming the specific medical condition is somehow inappropriate. Perhaps you can see how odd that seems.
Without knowing a rough age I can't tailor age appropriate advice.
I can't actually work out what you want.
I'm also surprised at what you tell us is the school's position on this.

I've posted several times on these boards that a man who has lost his penis is still 100% male, and a woman who has had a hysterectomy is 100% female.

There are so many DSDs that are still unambiguously either male or female.

Can you be more specific as to what advice you need?

fermatstheorum I'll try but I usually hide out in a very obscure quiet gentle corner of Mumsnet, this is scary!
Datun yes he is upset his biological sex is in question and that he seems to be viewed as trans or as being related to the trans issue and he is struggling to deal with that. Think aged around early teens.
LangCleg Thank you yes I think a word with the school is in order.

Early teens you have to be a bit more careful IMO. I do think it’s odd that, did you say their doctor won’t use the term intersex? I am concerned at the misinformed young woman who made the insensitive comment. One because I have never heard of a young teen in a feminist women’s circle before, and two because they think this boy is female because of his condition. That definitely needs addressing.

barracker the school in fairness seem to be struggling with this too as they look to put in place possible transgender guidelines. It also seems to have come up in debate a few times.
There is another component to his condition that I have not mentioned at all which is why I am avoiding the name.

mama you're welcome here. It just looked at first glance that your first post was disingenuous.

There must be a lot of people with disorders of sexual development who are in the same boat as your relative right now. The whole community is being used. Not having a penis definitely doesn't mean you're male in the case of DSD's. It must make life hugely difficult to negotiate and having people appropriate your situation must be dreadful. The school needs to tackle this if the children are aware. Ideally they'd be very firm with the other children and tell them about biology in a way that is easy to understand but obviously some schools are buying into the idea of gender identity.

I hope your repative finds a way of dealing with all this because I can well imagine it's very hard