R4 World at One: Janice Turner and Helen Belcher

[MsBeaujangles]

Going to discuss whether there have been attempts to silence debate re the GRA

• [Titled edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

few TRAs even listen to the points that are being put to them when discussing the impact on others.

There is a total reliance on 'no debate' and when forced to debate, coming up with threats/claims about how harmful debate is. We always knew that should debate be allowed the 'logic' would not hold together.

They will have to do some nifty regrouping and rethinking - I can't imagine what they next step will be, I really don't want to think what the narcissists amongst them will do.

In the meantime I hope that everyday trans peoples' and trans allies' voices will be elevated and heard and so the specific needs and interests of trans people will be focussed on in a manner that respects everyones interests.

Placemats That point about medical intervention in children vs adults is really stark when you put it like that.

Most people are going to hear the claim that transwomen have been around all through history and think 'wtf? no they haven't!' Which makes it of limited use as an argument.

Didn't you see Politics Live with Kathleen Stock, where a ridiculous clone of John Bercow cited trans going back to Roman and Ancient Egypt.

Dr Stock (sorry, she may be a Professor too) said " You're talking about Eunuchs."

Janice certainly had everything at her fingertips and used the time wisely. Belcher made a big mistake in targeting Janice. She is a popular journalist and fellow journalists are not going to take it lying down.

Belcher was basically just making up stuff as Belcher went along

The TRA movement is basically making up stuff as you go along. Obviously they have broad aims (as referenced by We're Still Here), but one week it's transwoman, then it's trans woman, then it's women are cis, then women are natal, then they're "other" women. Etc etc etc.

Going to discuss whether there have been attempts to silence debate re the GRA.

How is that a discussion? The TRAs raised hell to make it impossible to meet and speak out. Why not discuss whether the sun emits electronic waves? Duh.

Kathleen Stock is indeed a professor now. I was delighted when this was announced shortly after the Woke began trying to get her fired. She mentioned the other day that she frequently has stickers left on her office door alleging that she is a T* and so forth. She is a wonderfully brave woman, and so clear and clever, as is Janice Turner.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0000sz7

From 29:15ish

Belcher said in the 80s people said lesbians weren't women. Did they? I don't remember that.

I did a double take when I heard that. I'm 61 and have been an out lesbian since American Pie first hit the charts. I tried to think of any instance of people claiming that lesbians weren't women. I remember a lot of unflattering stuff being said, but never anyone claiming that lesbians weren't women.

Until it struck me that one of the perennial annoyances at lesbian clubs were those creepy blokes who tried to wheedle their way in by claiming to be lesbians trapped in male bodies.

Oh how we laughed as we kicked them out the door! Those must be the lesbians Belcher was referring to, it's the only explanation that makes sense. Perhaps Belcher was one of them and still bears a grudge?That would explain an awful lot.

Crikey - Belcher actually admits that injuring a trans person’s perceived self identity causes rage.

That’s not a good look.

Last week Belcher was on Newsnight saying wouldn't it be nice if this was a discussion rather than a debate. If they mean why does there need to be a winner, it's because women stand to lose when the trans activists overreach into women's rights.

Just listened - thanks for the link.

Janice's outrage at the despicable suicide threat used to silence debate came over well.

Good that the BBC aired it.

How old is Belcher? Because there will be a lot of people listening to that programme who know full well that in the 80s lesbians were definitely considered women. 🤣

Also the comment where she says I don't want men wandering around my loo? If anyone googles Belcher that comment is going to come across as daft.

But, for me, the most telling part of that programme was that Janice and Belcher were not in the studio at the same time. I'm assuming that's because Belcher wouldn't do it?

I like this comment

"So basically saying yes you did drive these teenager to suicide, that she wants in on wimenspace, & questioning this is akin to homophobia & racism got it."

There was a huge amount of rhetoric, both written and spoken in the last quarter of last century from men eroticising lesbian sex. It was considered a number one male sexual fantasy - offensive and pathetic perhaps but the opposite of people accusing lesbians of being men.i don’t remember that at all.

.i don’t remember that at all.

Me neither. If anything, they were misguided women who just needed a good seeing to. In other words, desirable women.

Just posted this in another thread so adding it here for tidiness reasons:

Belcher appears in the studio segment, starts from 6.10

Belcher is 55.

There was a huge amount of rhetoric, both written and spoken in the last quarter of last century from men eroticising lesbian sex.

It’s always been the largest sub genre of porn. I doubt many of the men beating off to it think they’re watching two men.

Hell, some men prefer lesbian porn because they think the sight of another man’s erection will give them the gay.

Belcher said in the 80s people said lesbians weren't women. Did they? I don't remember that

Belcher said that in the 1850s people said black people weren't people. Don't know whether that's true or not (I'm not that old)

I was at Greenham for a short spell. We were 'dirty women', 'terrible women', non-gender-conforming women, all-sorts-of women, but we were most definitely women.

Humans are chromosomal humans. And women are chromosomal women.

No-one is 'assigned human' ffs.

And gender is an icing on that chromosomal cake.

(I'm a scientist. And a non-soft-voiced woman.)

That's is a very telling point Placemats. It should definitely be noted: that the TRAs say if kids don't get medical transition they will commit suicide. But adult trans now overwhelmingly don't want it.

What it really means as we know is that only a small number of adults are actually truly dysphoric.

And it is even more chilling re kids.They dont know whar the loss of fertility and sexual function is: especially if they have been on puberty blockers. They are influenced by the adults in their life and social contacts. So if a high proportion of trans kids go for medical transition, it must be for reasons other than dysphoria.

And that's why it's a safeguarding issue.

I've always wondered about what used to be called Munchausen's by Proxy tbh.

Well, I do remember people saying lesbians were blokeish and "not real women", yeah. Generally people like the Sun's Gary Bushell, iirc and/or women who decried the decline of femininity and being ladylike. Was quite a common trope at one time, especially if you lived round our way.

To be fair, Midwifes are evil bastards who routinely cut up fannies and misassign sex to innocent infants.

Midwives are also responsible for swapping human babies with changelings. Fact.

Ida
Another Greenham woman, absolutely right, Orange Gate?, not sure after so many years !

Tried a google search for ‘lesbians aren’t women’ - couldn't find anything to support Belcher’s claims - just some recent articles about how lesbians can have penises and some older ones about arguing about whether lesbianism is ‘real’ (meaning innate and immutable) or not.

Seems to me that now is the point in history where some people are arguing that lesbians aren’t (all) women - although that only works if you subscribe to both the (conflicting) ideas of Transwomen being eligible for ‘lesbian’ status AND Transwomen being men. That seems like a difficult jumble of cognitive dissonance to hold in one brain.