R4 World at One: Janice Turner and Helen Belcher

[MsBeaujangles]

Going to discuss whether there have been attempts to silence debate re the GRA

• [Titled edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

Most people are going to hear the claim that transwomen have been around all through history and think 'wtf? no they haven't!'

This is the approach of an amateur TheCountessofFitzdotterel. Why limit yourself when you can claim that transwomen were common in many societies and it was the arrival of Western colonialism that caused them to disappear from those societies. Similar message but bonus woke points.

t's a long time since I did any of that stuff, but even I can remember that 'correlation doesn't equal causation' - that there could be a) a third factor contributing both to suicidal ideation AND the declaration that one is trans, or b) that the suicidal feelings/depression is the CAUSE of someone deciding that they are trans, as a way to make sense of their feelings etc.

Yup. And in fact one of the things GIDS will tell you is that the majority of young people who come to them with gender identity problems either have mental health problems such as depression and anxiety or autism. This is a troubled and vulnerable group of people.

'Similar message but bonus woke points.'

But not for Radio 4 listeners.

Interesting observation about that softening of approach Gently and I thought the same. There was an approach sited in the ‘We’re still here’ conference that recommend a softer approach I’m sure. Something about making the TRA narrative seem more sympathetic to women and children’s groups.
I think we are saying goodbye to no debate thank goodness. But hello to a much more insidious approach and being seen as reasonable.

The complete hypocrisy of HB talking about how damaging it is for identities to be undermined, when they are trying to redefine the very meaning of woman without consent.

I noticed the special soft voice for transwomen was employed again, them being so much more delicate than us

As something of a gobshite I find the ‘soft voice’ so fucking annoying.

Has anyone looked at the comparison to cultural appropriation and males pushing into female spaces.

With cultural appropriation you can punch up, but not down. Ie it ok for females to invade/appropriate men’s spaces/culture, because they are not in a position of power, but not ok for men to invade/appropriate women’s. This may be why trans men seem not to be such a problem.

There are all the hallmarks of appropriation, such as putting on a sparkly pink dress and wearing make-up, or knitting on TV. All pastiches of being a women. I thought of this as I was discussing a programme where a white film producer was showing Sidney Poitier? how to walk like a black man, because he was getting it wrong . I then watched a trans woman on a tv clip tell women how to do women better.

Am I totally wrong here? I know the safety issue is paramount, but I thought this an interesting aside.

Oops sorry meant to start a new thread. But haven’t had much practice.

You're not alone in seeing appropriation here. To my eye, once you take gender dysphoria out of the picture, what's left is mostly appropriation and human shields.

Janice Turner was obviously and clearly the voice of reason and science on this particular slot.

Helen Belcher was prevaricating between 'suicidal ideation', 'core of identity', 'attack and defence', 'defensive and aggressive', all 'changed within a year', 'nature is more varied than male and female', 'raises heckles', and of course that 'transwomen are women'. Mention of toilets as well.

And the best: A three second glace by the midwife.

TwistedStitch The complete hypocrisy of HB talking about how damaging it is for identities to be undermined, when they are trying to redefine the very meaning of woman without consent
Yeah. Belcher doesn't want sex assigned at birth because feelings, but is forcing me to share a "gender identity" with people I don't identify with.

And yes, it's appropriation plain and simple.

Isn't it time to start no-platforming people who have no grasp of responsible fact-based debate? If I see/hear Belcher on BBC again, I'm cancelling my licence.

Well it's all a bit of a relief for me as I had an amino and therefore didn't have to rely on some random midwife looking at my child's genitals for three seconds and making a wild guess as to the child's sex. Goodness knows how other parents cope. I mean if you don't know how the baby identifies until they can talk, how on earth do you know whether to put them in impractical pink clothes or practical blue ones?

@MsBeaujangles Might you consider asking MN to allow the title of the thread to be edited to include 'Janice Turner (Times) & Helen Belcher (Trans Media Watch)' please?
It seems such an important interview and with things moving so fast, people may not be able to identify the thread and it could get lost.

MN have been happy to do this with previous threads if you report the OP.

To be fair, Midwifes are evil bastards who routinely cut up fannies and misassign sex to innocent infants.

One part of that sentence is true.

Well the BBC have conceded on the 'climate change debate', as it's now obvious there is no debate to be had regarding climate change as it's happening and it's real. News items on climate change no longer allow a debate, only a discussion.

Oh and 'it's happening and it's real' is another phrase I forgot to mention when it comes to trans #nodebate

I'm not stupid. I can see what's happening here.

Oh and I believe that climate change is real and happening.

I believe that biological sex is not up for debate.

I believe that people can be lesbian, gay and bisexual.

I believe in gender dysphoria and have every sympathy with those who suffer from it.

Oh and we are meant to believe that children will suffer to such an extent regarding gender dysphoria that they need medical attention.

However, on the other hand, an adult doesn't need to change anything.

All four of my midwives never once attempted to cut up my fanny.

I had the scissors for two births place. Makes me wince even now.

I always said my kids had big heads.

Picking up an earlier point. I'm old enough to have been a student in the mid 80s. I had a number of friends who were lesbians. No one ever said they were men. Belcher is talking out of their arse (or as I prefer to put it, flat out lying).

I can well believe Belcher believes lesbians were not considered to be women in the 70s because Belcher is a sexist ninny who holds to the view that ‘woman’ boils down to reductive, regressive stereotypes about femininity, skirts, pink, sparkles, make-up, man-pleasing and knowing your place. Seeing as lots of lesbians actively eschew that shit, it is entirely unsurprising that Belcher would choose to ‘other’ lesbians in this way. Yet again displaying a very male take on womanhood.

Belcher was basically just making up stuff as Belcher went along.
Janice, on the other hand, had all her ducks in a row.

If sanity ever returns, I would hope to see Janice Turner get a handful of prizes for her involvement in this issue.

I think many media outlets will try and jump past the 'hmmm, perhaps we should listen to women' to 'so what is to be done'. I think this will be in an attempt to avoid claims of transphobia. However, when this shift happens and the third space suggestion is aired and rejected and the suggestion of recording gender and sex is aired and rejected, everyone will see just how extreme the ideology is and that'll leave only the wokiest wokes from Wokehampton buying in to the ideology.

A real concern of mine is that the inevitable ridiculing of the ideology will be spun by TRAs as ridiculing trans people and, once again, leading to unnecessary hurt and pain.

Belcher was basically just making up stuff as Belcher went along

I think that for some TRAs who have had the uncritical ears of media, politicians etc whilst spending so much time in an unquestioning trans community these 'arguments' pour out.

What seems clear from both here, Twitter and MSM is how few TRAs even listen to the points that are being put to them when discussing the impact on others.