R4 World at One: Janice Turner and Helen Belcher

[MsBeaujangles]

Going to discuss whether there have been attempts to silence debate re the GRA

• [Titled edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

I don't think Belcher's points even warranted challenge. I think they were just left hanging in the air so the listeners could try and process the nonsense.
I actually think when points are picked up and challenged, things tend to descend into what appears like a hissy spat.

'Helen comes across better on the radio than on television.'

Belcher is less hampered on the radio by physical appearance but the logic holes and inconsistencies were more evident.

I thought Belcher actually did pretty well on Newsnight and was fairly intelligent. This did not sound like an intelligent person.

Was Helen born male? If so, how on earth is their view on women’s safe spaces relevant if she uses them?

What a very illuminating interview with Helen Belcher! I think it will have opened the eyes of listeners (to coin a phrase) unfamiliar with the trans-narrative to just how balmy it is. Janice on the other hand was very clear and sensible.

Nothing is "assigned at birth". A Y chromosome is there from conception, and a lifelong indicator of the person being male.

Also, did you notice that Belcher was backtracking from 'Janice has caused these particular people to commit suicide' to 'Janice's articles have made the atmosphere of the debate more aggressive'?
Which made my jaw drop considering the way TRAs have been talking to feminists since well before 2017.

Lottapianos - appreciate your shouting. I tried not to for fear of frightening the dog.

As this issue has got more airtime it's become increasingly obvious that the AWA carefully evade the questions that are put to them. The more this goes on, the more apparent the holes and blatant contradictions in their argument will become to even the most casual listeners.

Did Belcher say "the dubious idea that transwomen are men"?

Mmmmm

Helen comes across better on the radio than on television. That point about 'I'm not keen on having men wandering around in the women's toilets' would have caused jaws to drop if listeners could have seen HB saying it.

Downside of radio!

OTOH, I think the jaw-drop would have distracted listeners from the absurdity of what was being said, which was important to fully listen to in order to understand.

Actually, I thought Helen was quite ‘soft’ there on a lot of things some TRAs take a hard line on. And this makes it a little more difficult to argue against that when people are clearly trampling on boundaries.

I've noticed the question avoiding skills... No wonder so many of them trying to get into politics. 🙄

Countess said it better.

Most people are going to hear the claim that transwomen have been around all through history and think 'wtf? no they haven't!' Which makes it of limited use as an argument.

And did Belcher say something like lesbians were told in the 1980s that they were not real women?

Belcher did Popchyk

It's funny how the TRA have moved on from #nodebate (because they realised that it was backfiring) to "we are already very silenced". Yes, you read that right: Belcher says that they are the ones being silenced!

Annoying that HB heard JT's piece and responded to it, but JT not given any chance to comment on HB's piece.

Belcher said in the 80s people said lesbians weren't women. Did they? I don't remember that.

Belcher said that in the 1850s people said black people weren't people. Don't know whether that's true or not (I'm not that old).

Belcher compared this to today when people say men are not women. Hmmm.

Black people are black in their own right... they just want their rights brought into parity with everyone else.

Gay people are gay in their own right... ditto they want parity of rights with everyone else.

Transwomen are laying claim to another group's protected identity and rights. It ontologically changes the meaning of "women" from one purely of biological status, to a complex morass of stereotypes, feelings, and avidity. It means likewise that in that ontological switch, the boundaries of that group become permeable. It also pushes out women from that class who aren't sufficiently feminine. It mandates that "woman" = feminine person. Women have a right to define their own boundaries from within, anything else is abusive gaslighting.

It's funny how the TRA have moved on from #nodebate (because they realised that it was backfiring) to "we are already very silenced".

The other day they had a film of Aimee Challenor on Newsnight to represent pro-self-id. They said they had asked others to appear, but they all refused. #nodebate means that they get the people who just want their moment in the spotlight to represent them, regardless of how bad that makes their side look.

You know the suicide thing? Even without the irresponsible and dangerous way it's flung about by TRAs, isn't the basic 'science' a bit shit? It's a long time since I did any of that stuff, but even I can remember that 'correlation doesn't equal causation' - that there could be a) a third factor contributing both to suicidal ideation AND the declaration that one is trans, or b) that the suicidal feelings/depression is the CAUSE of someone deciding that they are trans, as a way to make sense of their feelings etc.

Surely people with any dusty awareness of science will hear the trans argument and think 'nope, you've got that wrong pal'

ChilliJamandAvocado:

Black people are black in their own right... they just want their rights brought into parity with everyone else.
Gay people are gay in their own right... ditto they want parity of rights with everyone else.
Transwomen are laying claim to another group's protected identity. and rights.

^This.

Transpeople have rights in society. But that doesn't mean they get our rights.

The midwife deciding your gender from a 3 second glance I'd obviously nonsense. Most people know if midwives decided to call all the babies with penises girls it would make no difference as parents and common sense and society and reality and biology have roles.
I noticed the special soft voice for transwomen was employed again, them being so much more delicate than us

Belcher said in the 80s people said lesbians weren't women. Did they? I don't remember that.

I believe I'm somewhat older than Belcher (I'm 60) and speaking as one of the very gays Belcher is talking about here, believe I can add my lived experiential perspective to this.

Did they bollocks. Unless Belcher means a few blokes that Belcher knows did and then I'd have to bow to Belcher's better knowledge.

"we are already very silenced". Yes, you read that right: Belcher says that they are the ones being silenced!

Narcissistic accusing others of what they do themselves and claiming victim.