AIBU to refuse to use 'preferred pronouns'?

[BonBonns]

If someone presents themselves as transgender and says they want to be known as 'she' do I have to do that?

Do I have no freedom of speech?

I do not believe people can change sex.

I do not believe that a man can become a woman. With pronoun use. With hormones. With dresses or lipstick. With surgery.

It is just NOT my personal belief.

Is it a hate crime to refer to someone born male as a man against their will?

Even if it is against mine?

Where would that end?

I am atheist. Do I have to say I believe in God to appease a Catholic? Am I forced to refer to a priest as 'Father' even though I don't follow that religion?

If someone is called David but wants to be called Dave am I to be investigated if I choose to continue using David?

Isn't this madness?

How can my own beliefs come 2nd to someone else's delusions?

It is biology. It is science. It is common sense.

A man cannot become a woman any more than I can become 23 again or an antelope.

I know women are "meant" to be nice...

But there's nothing really wrong with being nice when you're a woman.

It irritates me that we are more shocking when we aren't... but I don't think it's really that big a deal to expect and hope anyone male or female is nice to other human beings

Enthusiasm - how do you know you can always tell? Have you inspected the underparts/DNA of every single person you've met? If you don't routinely do this, then you are he/she'ing on the basis of the gender you perceive, not sex - you can't know that you always get this right. And if that is what you are doing, why are you a better judge of a person's gender than the person themself is?

The only way we can influence the language other people use to refer to us is our behaviour. It's the difference between some one calling you 'she' and 'that monumental bitch'. I will, as far as possible, respect the pronouns of anyone who behaves like a decent human being. An entitled, misogynistic homophobic TRA will not have the same courtesy extended.

There's an issue here of competing rights. I have an extremely poor memory thanks to a brain injury. Unless your pronouns align with the way you look, I'm guaranteed to forget them. Someone with autism may see the truth as more important than an indulgent lie. What wins; someone's right to dictate pronouns as a means to express their gender identity or another person's ability to use them?

How do you know she can't tell, VerySadPants?

I don't know she can't tell. I just don't see how she can know for sure she can tell.

Women are generally very good at identifying which people are male, despite them being in a dress and wearing lipstick and long hair.

Funny, that! What with women having had to negotiate all of history, thousands of years, with a sound sense of identification of who is female and who is male!

And now, there are people who are trying to tell us we are wrong??!!

What does it matter whether or not she can always tell? When she can tell, she can tell the truth.

Not wrong, mostly, passing is hard - just not infallible. I'm just saying you don't generally use pronouns based on scientifically proven sex but perceived gender.

I can't answer your question, OP - I absolutely refuse to lie. That is compelled speech. Likewise as an atheist I will not take part in prayers.

The socialised part of me says that realistically I would probably take each person on a case by case basis IF they were not attempting to compel me.

Overall, though, it occurs to me that this screeching about pronouns by activists is not so much compelled speech (since as many point out, we tend not to use 3rd person in the presence of that person), but an attempt to compel thought. It's about the words we use inside our own minds; the more pressured we are to conform to using the non-biological pronoun, the more our minds use it and consequently reframe our mental picture of that person. And the more we say TWAW, the more we say "yes, here is a woman in this woman's space". Note how often the pronouns request is accompanied by the "or else I'll kill myself" tactic.

Of course, the self-preservation instinct and single-sex taboo is so strong for many of us that we either refuse to lie (and are deemed rude) or withdraw. Or we fall into cognitive dissonance, with a consequent lowering of barriers. I do think this is a deliberate tactic employed by certain TRAs which then becomes the script used for all trans people, often prempted by the woke, and not really examined by anyone except eg Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander.

Pardon? Jelly, was that a reply to my post? In which case, I don't understand, can you explain a bit more, thanks!

You do use pronouns in front of the person themselves all the time when there's more than two of you there - ''she's got a point" - "give him his jacket" &c.

Yeah you're unreasonable and rude if you do that. But surely you know that.

Can you think about it like this OP- my name is Abigail and i repeatedly ask you to call me Gail. For personal reasons it means a lot to me that people call me Gail.

I'd think you were pretty bloody rude if you called me Abigail and demanded to see my birth certificate, and told me that really my name was legally Abigail and therefore you were only speaking truth. I wouldn't admire your free speech, or your honesty, or applaud your commitment to your own values.

I would just think you were an arse and not want to be in your company.

My experience as a woman (born female with female reproductive type physical body and biology and physiology) we always know when men are men, even when they are wearing a dress!

Even when they are young and slender and willowy and have long hair!I

We know men!

It’s not a hate crime to call someone by a different pronoun but really, even if you don’t believe people can change gender, can’t you just use a different pronoun for the sake of being polite? If I meet someone who introduces themselves by a nickname I try to use it rather than their official name, would you refuse then as they haven’t changed their name legally?

Nicknames, fine - no problem! Call yourself anything you want!

But men calling themselves women and insisting on penetrating into woman-only spaces, roles and jobs?!

When a man tries to tell me that he is a woman - despite there
being objective standards to the contrary - then I must be honest.

Men are men. I do not regard men as women.

can’t you just use a different pronoun for the sake of being polite?

Ie women, be nice. Conform to the stereotypes of womanhood.

But men calling themselves women and insisting on penetrating into woman-only spaces, roles and jobs?!

I don't see them being 'nice'. I don't see them conforming to the stereotypes of womanhood. I see them conforming to the stereotypes of manhood.

Thanks for answering, JellySlice.

Totally agree. There seems to be a push on women to be "nice" again. Bollocks to that. Female bollocks, obvs!

YABU. In this debate let’s not lose sight of the fact that many trans women are not the nasty misogynistic types who tell women to suck their lady dick etc. They are genuinely marginalised and life is hard for them. That isn’t to say women’s spaces have to automatically be opened up to them as there are competing rights but as a matter of courtesy their preferred pronoun should be used. It must be very upsetting for a trans woman to be referred to as “he” and it achieves nothing.

McTufty, transwomen are still men. They are not women. They are men.

It must be very upsetting for a trans woman to be referred to as “he” and it achieves nothing. I’m sure it is, but it’s also very upsetting for the people who are told they must go along with the the trans identifying man’s fantasy, against their own well being, or they’re not very ‘nice’.

I really do think it's a bit silly to disregard how you may make an individual feel to make a point.

I don't believe transwomen are women (they're not) however unless one personally asks me or reads my comments on social media I don't intend to go about making it personal.

There ARE transwomen out there who aren't transactivists who genuinely just want to live their lives. Who also recognise that no magic fairy has changed their sex but they want to express themselves as close to a woman as they can. Let's not demonise individuals who are also some of them saying alongside women that what's happening is utter madness or go about purposefully and unecessarily upsetting individuals who obviously are rather upset already

Transwomen aren't the enemy. Mysogenistic men are some of whom are transactivists

Honestly I don’t see what difference it makes on your life to use preferred pronouns. Live and let live. I am an atheist too and I would still refer to a priest as Father, it is their religion and their belief and makes absolutely no difference to me to grant them this simple request.

I don't know she can't tell. I just don't see how she can know for sure she can tell.

Because pretty much 100% of the time most people can tell.

We might pretend otherwise out of politeness or, more often, fear of social consequences, but we know.

After reading comments I have changed position. I would actually avoid trans people and their allies all together, they are too much work. I would find something I needed to do so I could avoid.
I avoid easily offended people once I've identified them, to be honest. So I can understand this. I suggest OP tries it out. As important as honesty is, there's a time and a place. You don't tell your boss they're incompetent even if they are. You don't tell your friend she's fat even if she is. If you don't want to call a transwoman "she" then structure your conversation so as to avoid using pronouns. It's a pain but it's possible and it means not having to sit through disciplinaries at work or alienating potentially GC individuals. We might be socialised to be "nice" but we don't have to fight that by being deliberately awkward or hurtful.
If someone required me to reveal my beliefs I would - I don't believe transwomen are women - but that's never come up and I doubt it will.