Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times 'Lib Dem trans activists ‘hounded’ abuse victim (Natalie Bird)''.Article refers to Zoe O'Connell & Sarah Brown

338 replies

R0wantrees · 19/10/2018 09:40

article by Lucy Bannerman
(extract)
"A victim of domestic abuse was removed as a judge of a radical thinking prize and “hounded” out of her role within the Liberal Democrats for saying that she did not believe that men who identified as women should have access to women’s refuges.

Natalie Bird, 38, a mother of two who fled an abusive former partner, was accused of “dangerous transphobia” by transgender activists in the party. She had said that opening up safe spaces without proper safeguards to anyone who said that they were female could put women at risk.

She opposed segregating women’s refuges by chosen gender instead of biological sex, and said that it was not fair to make female victims of domestic violence, abuse and rape share services with people with “functioning” male anatomy.

After being allegedly bullied on social media by party activists, Ms Bird was brought before a disciplinary hearing to face a complaint in the name of Zoe O’Connell, on behalf of the LGBT+ Liberal Democrats. The correspondence says that Ms Bird had “expressed troublesome views”.

The hearing found no evidence to support the complaint of transphobia, but Ms Bird lost her position as chairwoman of the Radical Association, made up of party members, following a vote of no confidence. This cost her her role as a judge of the Ashdown Prize for Radical Thought; an ironic move, Ms Bird said, given that the prize’s aim was to reward “big, bold, radical” solutions to society’s most “daunting problems . . . no one has the courage to argue for” (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lib-dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-b6dx39tv3

Hopefully many LibDem Members will stand in support of Natalie Bird.

O'Connell and Brown make a mockery of the LibDem priciples and their bullying abusive behaviour has been allowed to run unchecked within the party.

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity. We champion the freedom, dignity and well-being of individuals, we acknowledge and respect their right to freedom of conscience and their right to develop their talents to the full. We aim to disperse power, to foster diversity and to nurture creativity. We believe that the role of the state is to enable all citizens to attain these ideals, to contribute fully to their communities and to take part in the decisions which affect their lives.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
bitheby · 19/10/2018 16:11

I'm a Lib Dem. I was taught by the former Lib Dem MP for Cambridge. Wish he would stand again.

I've seen Natalie being abused in closed Facebook groups. I have considered leaving the party over this issue. Not sure where else I would go. It really saddens me how much influence some very illiberal people have.

TheHarpySings · 19/10/2018 16:15

I managed to get into a LibDem fringe meeting at their conference this year regarding trans and intersex people in the media. I’ll post the notes on this thread in a while. Brown was a speaker.

SorosPaysMe · 19/10/2018 16:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SorosPaysMe · 19/10/2018 16:17

P.S. Trans women are women. Trans women are adult human females.

SuburbanRhonda · 19/10/2018 16:18

Trans women are women. Trans women are adult human females.

GrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrin

FekkoTheLawyer · 19/10/2018 16:19

Soros... No they are not. Do please explain your point though. I'd love to hear it.

NoseringGirl · 19/10/2018 16:21

Soros you've made a list of accusations about her but don't actually give any examples? What transphobia? What ableism? How was she "mean"?

TheHarpySings · 19/10/2018 16:21

My notes from the Lib Dem fringe meeting in Brighton:

The meeting had the following people speaking at it:

Karen Lindsey, who edits LibDem Voice (their member magazine)
James Morton of the Scottish Transgender Alliance
Emma Ritch, Engender
Sarah Brown (Lib Dems)
Sal Brinton (President of the Lib Dems)

Unless something below is in quote marks consider it paraphrased.

Karen Lindsey:
A core liberal value is not to allow marginalised groups to be victimised, especially in the media. A person’s identity is not a subject for debate- we must stand against attacks. In Scotland, the tone is friendlier and there is more collaboration in the voluntary sector.

James Morton:
This is about making sure transgender people don’t have to go through red tape. They want their brith certificate changed without red tape or panel.

Here are the three things we want:

  1. Remove the psychiatric requirements to getting a GRC and the 2year time delay. We want a statutory self-declaration- which will be legal declaration. Lying on it would be punishable. This is about people living permanently in their new gender, not flip flopping back at random. {Note- this seems to contradict what James Morton said at the We’re Still Here Conference- where they did discuss being able to legally change back without it be viewed as ill intentions.}

  2. Remove age restrictions on the GRC. Kids in distress should be listened to. Kids don’t have much ID and don’t want to be outed as trans. Puberty blockers are reversible, just pause puberty.

  3. Non binary people should be able to get a gender neutral birth certificate. They may present as one gender or the other on a part time basis or want to opt out of gender entirely. Non binary ID is not taken seriously.

Dont’ bother with people on Twitter- talk in person to the people in the “moveable middle”. Allies can help with this.

Emma Ritch:
How do we reconcile feminist and trans understandings of rights. In Scotland VAWG orgs have to be inclusive as a condition of funding. We have trust and strong relationship with Scottish Transgender Alliance.
As a feminist group we have been collaborating with other women’s orgs so that we are all on the same page and we could communicate that women’s organisations were in favour [of the proposed changed to the GRA in Scotland] & we had no concerns.

English women’s organisations are contacting the Scottish organisations about the “difficult conversations” they are having to have around this issue.

One reason the tone of the debate has been better in Scotland is because feminist organisations in Scotland are listened to and receive funding from the Scottish government so their view is valued.

The media is also different in Scotland- the tone in the Scottish papers the Herald and the Scotsman is more positive on the GRA.

The debate in England has become messy, hostile and polarised. There needs to be acknowledgement where things have been messy and feminist organisations should help the tone by supporting the trans organisations.

Understand concerns come from real fears and act together against VAWG

Maintain “radical kindness”- create spaces for genuine discussion with no name calling.

Sarah Brown:
I had to fight a bi-election because a woman resigned because she didn’t want to abide by the Equalities Act.

A year ago media stories were transphobic but puerile “Stella became a fella” type stories.

Now in the USA there are toilet bans, military bans and trans people are having their passports confiscated.

The same people want to attack trans rights in the UK- trans is an easy soft target to start attacked LGBT rights.

There’s been vicious feminist transphobia.

The tone of the media coverage has changed because of the proposed GRA changes, which have been deliberately conflated with the Equalities Act. The spaces governed by EA2010 are NOT under review- this is a lie.

If you’re a violent person you can’t get into refuges full stop.

“They are lying about the law””

“There is something more insidious going on”- the rhetoric has become more sophisticated and is equating transwomen with violence and males. They even have a name for us- “Tims”- trans identified male. “We are not male”.

They are using the same tactic as the pro-Brexit campaign with demonising a marginalised group. They even have tame transwomen on their side and are using “weaponised politeness”. It’s easy to sound polite and reasonable when you are trying to take away people’s rights.

It’s an organised campaign to demonise transwomen. “I’m frightened”.

They want to repeal all transgender people’s protections in the EA2010 and repeal the GRA2004.

Transwomen are portrayed as violent men. When we display emotion about this we are accused of shutting down debate. They want capitulation and submission. Trans rights are human rights.

We need good civic education. This is not a debate. The narrative has been decided. Natasha Kennedy monstered for making a list of transphobic lecturers- she was just trying to protect young people.

Sal Brinton:
Respect tolerance and understanding are at the core of Lib Dems. The change on discourse is alarming. If you removed “trans” from it and replaced with “black” it would be seen as unacceptable.

In the party, the discipline process will be amended. The disciplinary panels will be trained. Adjudicators and investigators will be trained in the core hate crime area. They will need to be trained before they are eligible to be on a panel.

We need to call out intolerance. there is a different tone amongst people under 20 but this cannot wait.

I reiterate that I would not object to a parliament where 50% of seats were held by transwomen because “I don’t differentiate”

SorosPaysMe · 19/10/2018 16:24

@NoseringGirl That would involve listing examples and cases that are very personal and involve members of the organisation who are already being exposed to an absurd level of hounding. Members of RA were made aware of what went on, and 2/3rds of them voted to remove her. That isn't a small feat, and it isn't the business of mumsnet or the times to say thats illegitimate.

Sarahconnor1 · 19/10/2018 16:27

Trans women are trans women. Trans women are adult human males

Fixed that for you

NoseringGirl · 19/10/2018 16:31

Soros but it's okay for you to come on MN to call her a mean, ableist transphobe with no actual evidence to back it up?

SorosPaysMe · 19/10/2018 16:33

NoseringGirl My point is not that you have to believe that I am telling the truth, but that the RA went through a democratic process and the membership decided they did not want her as the Chair anymore. Unless you think that she should just be kept in a role that nobody wants her in because otherwise it wouldn't fit your personal GC agendas, then you can't have an issue with her being removed.

R0wantrees · 19/10/2018 16:34

Full disclosure, I am a libdem and Radical Association member but do not hold any official role in either.

SorosPaysMe you may well be in a Radical Association but there is nothing liberal or democratic about this group of members of the LIbDem party.

I've seen the Social Media pile ons too. Its blatent bullying and coersive control.

OP posts:
BigotedWoman · 19/10/2018 16:35

Do these people and their minions have Google alerts on their own name?

NoseringGirl · 19/10/2018 16:36

Soros why are you assuming I have a personal agenda? I'm just interested in why you're making accusations about an individual on a public forum when you can't back them up. We're going round in circles though so I'm going to leave that there.

R0wantrees · 19/10/2018 16:38

Yes I think so, it happened once before.

The same happens if an issue is brought up in LibDem SM groups. Very quickly the same names appear, people are ganged up on.

Very manipulative, and effective.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 19/10/2018 16:38

SorosPaysMe

And you think that makes us more or less likely to vote for the LibDems?!

Good grief. Do you people want any votes?

SorosPaysMe · 19/10/2018 16:39

R0wantrees Thats certainly your opinion, but it is one that has no basis in reality. The party is entirely democratic, with internal elections,. democratic policy discussions on positions to take, and the ability to remove office holders if the membership doesn't want them anymore. That is a core and important democratic principle.

As how liberal they are, we clearly have very different ideas of liberalism. These people are great liberals and radicals who don't hold prejudices and hatred towards trans people and their rights like Natalie does. A incidentally disagree with most of them on many libdem internal policy discussions, but the idea they aren't liberal is laughable.

Sarahconnor1 · 19/10/2018 16:39

SorosPaysMeyou may well be in a Radical Association but there is nothing liberal or democratic about this group of members of the LIbDem party

This, this and this.

SorosPaysMe · 19/10/2018 16:40

LangCleg Idk where you get the idea that I want anyone here's, or more importantly anyone who backs Natalie, vote. I don't. Go vote UKIP or something, or the greens if they go full transphobe, cos they are the only parties backing your vile anti trans agenda. Or maybe the National Front/BNP/EDL or whatever its called these days will back you as well.

QuietContraryMary · 19/10/2018 16:42

SorosPaysMe I don't know who you are, but given Luke Graham's post, which I linked above:

"I see the Radical Association has been name dropped on Mumsnet. So allow me to say very loudly. Trans Woman are Woman, Trans Men are Men, and transphobes of any stripe are not welcome in our organisation. If you don't believe me just ask my predecessor!"

he's sending out the message very clearly 'she was removed because she was a "transphobe"'.

For you to come here and say 'oh actually it was other that I'm not going to go into' is therefore a little difficult.

The fact that 66 people (or whatever it was) in your group voted to kick her out doesn't really tell us anything at all. I mean all available data suggests that the Lib Dems are full of TRAs, so there's nothing here which goes to contradict the impression that she was kicked out for being gender-critical.

deepwatersolo · 19/10/2018 16:44

SorosPaysMe So what you are saying is that no other parties than Front/BNP/EDL, UKIP and possibly the Greens in the future represent the will of the overwhelming majority of the people on this issue of women's rights?
Don't you think this is a troubling sign of technocratic elite rule?

MonsterSister · 19/10/2018 16:47

Soros, how on earth can you post with a straight face 'There is an astonishing level of misinformation on this thread ' and then add 'Trans women are adult human females'?

No, they aren't. That's not a criticism, just a fact.

pennydrew · 19/10/2018 16:49

Thats certainly your opinion, but it is one that has no basis in reality

😂😂😂😂 I had to laugh at that comment... from someone who thinks trans women are women 😬

Woman: Adult Human Female.

TwistedStitch · 19/10/2018 16:49

Soros you sound like a religious fanatic.

Swipe left for the next trending thread