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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radio 4 transgender cyclist

122 replies

BlackeyedGruesome · 19/10/2018 07:25

start 7.24

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 19/10/2018 09:01

I like the idea that autocorrect may have inadvertently transitioned Justin Webb to Justine in a previous post.

FlowersAndHerts · 19/10/2018 09:02

I have a suspicion someone working at the BBC is using the pro-trans agenda to let them hang themselves with their own rope.
I agree with you!
Christina knew what she was talking about. The transman just didn't seem to see the issues.

SlipperyLizard · 19/10/2018 09:03

Sorry for saying Mishal, I came in to the interview halfway through and rage made me confused (not just the interview, but because DH was trying to unload the dishwasher as I tried to listen!).

It was Martha Kearney, although still no excuse for using that term.

nauticant · 19/10/2018 09:03

hahahah borntobequiet. it was actually touch-typing fingers and rubbish proof-reading skills.

CaveMum · 19/10/2018 09:03

It’s just insane isn’t it!

I can’t find the quote but read an article a while back saying that something like 40 professional male athletes ran the 400m in a time faster than the Women’s 400m World Record time last year.

If you were the 25th fastest man and all you had to do was declare “I’m a woman” and hey presto World Record and gold medal that would be a massive temptation for a certain type of man.

Starlings27 · 19/10/2018 09:04

#factsmatter unless the fact is that women don’t have penises.

SlipperyLizard · 19/10/2018 09:04

Dancelike - I saw that too this morning, although not on FB. Shocking.

FermatsTheorem · 19/10/2018 09:05

I just caught the tail end of the today programme. Yes, I thought Christina came across very well.

Zeugma · 19/10/2018 09:05

That spluttering, umming and erring person was a total joke. Utterly incoherent. And this is the calibre of the 'reasoned arguments' of the trans side?

A 5-year-old would be more articulate.

senua · 19/10/2018 09:08

The interview before 9 o'clock was rubbish.
It started by mentioning the affect of trans on women and I thought "hallelujah they've got it!".
Then the entire debate was between a transwoman and a transman. So only trans got a voice.Angry

nauticant · 19/10/2018 09:10

Consider yourself lucky it wasn't two transwomen complaining about "those awful T*RFs".

borntobequiet · 19/10/2018 09:13

The Beeb seem to have realised that GC transwomen come over as fair, articulate and convincing. Which is a good thing.

Figural · 19/10/2018 09:16

This is the link I referred to in my previous post.

There are quite a few onward links in it which also help build the picture of what's driving this.

FermatsTheorem · 19/10/2018 09:21

Although I rolled my eyes a bit about "no women again", in the end I came round to the view that in this particular instance Christina was the right person for the job. Umming-and-erring transman was playing the "it's just an administrative streamlining of existing procedures" card (didn't seem to have anything else), so to have Christina on there as a transwoman saying "actually, no, I am trans and this does have implications for women's rights, which is why there needs to be a proper debate, and it's the job of elected politicians to make sure this debate takes place, both in HoC and in wider society" was the right note to strike.

It stopped the interview being written off as "strident feminist vs. blue haired trans person" in the mind of the generic middle-England listener who's new to these issues. (Cf the way it's taken time for the comments section in the Times to shift from "ha ha, the liberal left eats itself" to "hang on a moment, I should be paying attention to this.")

NoSuchThingAsAlpha · 19/10/2018 09:21

Anti vaxers believe "science is on their side" as do climate change deniers. The trick is to use the evidence selectively and pick only the papers that support you (or only the parts of papers), that way you can claim to have scientific support even when you actually don't.

Rachel is probably referring to a couple of studies of Olympic athletes that support the idea that the variation in natural testosterone levels for male athletes does not have an effect on performance. However, those studies found that testosterone levels DO have a beneficial effect for women in certain events, which is why the IOC recently reintroduced a limit on testosterone levels for women athletes.

Either way, those studies aren't relevant as Rachel went through puberty with XY chromosomes, meaning that some physiological differences are always going to be present.

Someone on another thread pointed out how you don't see trans women gymnasts competing at the highest level. That's because they have a different physiology. Women have greater flexibility in their joints, which means their events are different to those of male bodied competitors. Those back arches you see on the beam? Trans women can't do those.

Male bodied athletes have advantages in terms of a lower fat percentage, larger lungs and a larger heart. They are also less likely to suffer shoulder and knee injuries. They are, statistically speaking, taller too. For trans women to compete on a level playing field with women, you'd need to eliminate those differences - but even trans women who lower their testosterone level and take estrogen will still have larger lungs, a bigger heart and be, on average, taller.

Truth is, science has not conclusively demonstrated the idea that trans women athletes do not have a psysiological advantage over those born women. Because there is quite a lot of natural variation within the groups, you need a decent sample size of trans women to use as a comparison. This hasn't happened yet. The nul hypothesis is that they DO have an advantage, as we know conclusively that those born male have, on average, an advantage over those born female in most sporting events. To guarantee fairness, we have to demonstrate that trans women do not have an advantage.

My feeling is that trans women should have their own events. They can then compete at the highest level on the biggest stages, and also we will be able to gather evidence to see if they retain an advantage or not.

Interesting reading:

blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2018/04/11/time-to-dispense-with-the-male-female-binary-in-sport-analysis-of-the-cases-of-laurel-hubbard-and-mack-beggs/

On a side note, this is another example of the BBC failing to fact-check the use of science. They are not alone, but they do seem particularly bad at challenging incorrect scientific claims. By prioritising so-called balance, they allow a minority position to make unscientific claims and do not call out those unscientific claims. If the interviewer had done their research and was being objective they would have pointed out that the scientific community, as a whole, does not accept the idea that trans women are women in sport.

AnchorMum · 19/10/2018 09:24

Just really what is the point of even having a discussion about this 'toxic' issue if the time given to it is so short?

Listeners simply cannot get anything meaningful from it apart from a couple of headlines.

In this case Kristina's: this will affect biological women and politicians need to debate it. Versus Lewis Hancox's: there's no problem, trans are not bad people and abusers will be dealt with as they are at present.

A lot of people will still be confused as to what the consultation is, what changes it proposes, and how this will affect both sides. Let alone how changes will compromise the equality act.

Utterly pointless and it just goes to show how little the BBC actually care about really helping the public to understand the different positions and exactly what the consultation is.

Trying to cram coverage of such a complex and sensitive consultation into small sections across their programming over a few days has resulted in appalling journalism, allowing 'mis-truths' and nonsense to be spouted without challenge. It's shocking way for the BBC to deal with such an important matter.

What they should have done is have a couple of specialist reporters on this, who understand all the issues and complexities and can explain them properly. Neutral analysts who can then cut through inaccuracies in interviews and reports and give a balanced, fair summary. Like the Brexit specialists do.

Instead all we seem to have is we have 'digital native' Megha Mohan.

Anniegetyourgun · 19/10/2018 09:35

I'm a little bemused by the implication that it's not cheating if you don't win every time.

Re the earnest video on celebrating mothers of whatever sex, apart from the term "cis mother" (how does THAT work?!), I felt a little chill at the bit early on where the presenter says she knew her mum always wanted a girl and now she feels so much closer to her. I hope it wouldn't take transitioning to make my sons feel close to me - I hope I've shown them love and approval for what they are, not what I wish they could have been.

BreakWindandFire · 19/10/2018 09:51

Here's an interview with Sarah Fader, the champion cyclist who refused to race against McKinnon this week in protest

Fader, however, told me that she felt that racing against Dr. McKinnon was simply not fair. Dr. McKinnon stands six feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. Fader, by contrast, is 5-foot-5 and weighs 135 pounds. So minutes before the finals were set to start, she pulled out of the competition entirely.

“I thought that doing it this way was my own form of protest,” Fader said. “I knew that I personally did not agree with the situation. I don’t want to compete in a sport where the rules are unfair.”

AbsintheFriends · 19/10/2018 10:10

What they should have done is have a couple of specialist reporters on this, who understand all the issues and complexities and can explain them properly. Neutral analysts who can then cut through inaccuracies in interviews and reports and give a balanced, fair summary. Like the Brexit specialists do.

In 100% agreement with this. Much is being made by presenters of the toxic debate and the need to take the heat out of discussion, but they're saying it in the manner of ineffectual primary school teachers failing to take charge. If you pitch 2 GC voices against 5 pro-self ID people keen to make each point personal, it's obvious the ensuing 3 minute conversation isn't going to do much except baffle and alienate listeners.

The BBC are supposed to know this. They're supposed to be good at covering complex issues in a way that helps listeners to understand. It seems they have an interest in actively obstructing and obfuscating in this debate. WHY??

Bowlofbabelfish · 19/10/2018 10:18

Facts do matter, Rachel.

Here’s one for you: humans can’t change sex.

nauticant · 19/10/2018 10:29

It seems they have an interest in actively obstructing and obfuscating in this debate. WHY??

Because it seems that when there is a conflict between progressive politics and an opposing view, the BBC, en masse, don't seem to want to inform and educate their audience about the opposing view.

I would have loved a BBC radio journalist like Andrew Hosken to have been given the task of investigating this and reporting.

JuneFromBethesda · 19/10/2018 10:30

Thank you NoSuchThingAsAlpha for that very informative post - really interesting.

momentomori · 19/10/2018 10:48

Pushback from female racers

Pushbackfromfemaleracers

Good for Sarah Fader.

Perhaps this will catch on.

BettyDuMonde · 19/10/2018 11:02

Women athletes in all disciplines need to start making court challenges to their sports governing bodies.

Happy to donate to crowdfunded legal fees for women athletes of all nationalities.

FermatsTheorem · 19/10/2018 11:15

That article is interesting momento in that it contains the following stark admission:

"Dr. Vilain referenced the structure of the pelvis and the mass of certain muscle groups as anatomical differences between the male and female body that will always be somewhat different. But achieving total equality is not the point, Dr. Vilain said. The purpose of the NCAA’s rules is to, in a sense, shift the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male. The goal is to create a pathway to include the transgender athlete, not create total equality."

Yup, there it is in black and white.

The aim of the guidelines is to let transwomen compete.

This is more important than ensuring fairness for the female competitors.

In other words, "Fuck you women! Move over and make space for your lords and masters."