So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

[YuhBasic]

Because I’m still not clear.

Sorry if this has been answered before 😕

LorettasBox Thanks for reminding us, none of us realized.

I was pointing out the obvious because it was suggested to me as a man (by another poster) that it was none of my business, when, as you sarcastically suggest, it is.

DadJoke I'm saying that you can be as interested in theoretical human rights as you like, and sure, have an opinion, but at the end of the day whether you "would allow" males into women's toilets and onto women's shortlists is not really the point. It's not about you.
You can tie yourself up in knots about who to support all you like but, like I said, it's really not your business as it just doesn't affect you.
6 months ago I would not have said that but I have had enough of men telling women what to do, what to think and how much power women don't have.

No, it isn't any of your business. The fact that women won't be listened to until men chime in doesn't make it your business, it just illustrates the whacked out injustice of women still being second class over this. I wouldn't be crowing about it if I were you.

I was pointing out the obvious because it was suggested to me as a man (by another poster) that it was none of my business, when, as you sarcastically suggest, it is.

You must really, really hate the women in your family - because your blithe support for this simply puts all of them at massive risk and eradicates their right to privacy.

Dad (don't @ me, by the way, I have email notifications switched off and it's not the done thing anyway)

so, 2% of reported hate crime as recorded by the Home Office is transgender hate crime. That's the lowest of all the hate crimes they record
(71,251 (76%) race hate crimes;
11,638 (12%) sexual orientation hate crimes;
8,336 (9%) religious hate crimes;
7,226 (8%) disability hate crimes are the other stats)

And of course misogyny isn't treated as a hate crime anyway. So I fail to see how that backs up your assertion that ' Transwomen are more likely to suffer violence and sexual violence, and are subject to very specific abuse because they are transgender. They suffer gender based and trans-based oppression, though not oppression based on their male bodies.'

There is also no definition of transgender in that report so no what of knowing what they're actually reporting on - if it's using the Stonewall definition it could mean anything.

I agree that men have limited ability to identify with the reasons that women sometimes need spaces that exclude men.

However, they should be able to comment on AWS. Specifically if I were a man I would be wondering why all the reasons used to justify AWS can be thrown out the window if the right kind of man wants to be included on one. Anyone should be able to comment on a policy that defies logic.

You never see people like Penguin in trans forums, sweetly crooning endlessly to transgender people about how real women deserve the right to discuss our concerns without being systematically silenced, and to have our sexual boundaries respected. Sorry Penguin, your comments just read as "Hello ladies, my men friends need you to shut up now and center their ladybrain".

This is just the Lite version of the same old transgender "good cop/bad cop" routine where women are supposed to police ourselves merely because the transsexuals are sad, so the rougher trans don't have to show us who is boss. I'm tired of it. Go tell your transsexual friends that all this time they've been silent and not speaking up in defense of women-only space, they've kinda lost their opportunity to be seen as innocents caught in the middle.

Sorry about the @ thing, RiverTam

2% when the transgender population is tiny is a huge figure.

but meaningless when you don't know what is meant by transgender or indeed what constitutes a hate crime and meaningless as a comparison with the violence and sexual violence women experience every day. 2 women a day killed by men, pretty sure those men hated those women but no stats for that. Whereas a man claiming to be a woman is more likely to be a murderer than to be murdered.

Karen White was fond of reporting his elderly neighbours for the "hate crime" of misgendering wasn't he?

2% when the transgender population is tiny is a huge figure.

But not anything to do with women.

Strangely nobody suggests that people who suffer hate crimes for other reasons need to share women’s facilities.

That's the thing. I actually have tremendous sympathy with genuine victims of trans phobic hate crime, and I know this does exist..BUT who is perpetuating it? Is it women? Probably not. It is not the job of all women and girls to protect men from other men at the expense of OUR safety.

at ohelo’s assumptions about me just because some of my friends are trans! FWIW my friends are a diverse bunch and include quite a few rad fems. I’ve always said that self-ID is potentially problematic and totally understand that there are some spaces (such as DV shelters) where male-bodied people might make others uncomfortable. I find the false dichotomy fascinating. I believe that the patriarchy harms not only women but also other people who don’t fall into patriarchal norms including people who are trans.
Interestingly the trans people and rad fems I know IRL are all capable of having a reasonable conversation about the issues. There’s something about the internet that seems to turn people more unpleasant I think.

Going back to the topic subject, now over 24 hours since I asked someone (anyone) on the LP's twitter thread advising to follow Stonewall's consultancy guidance what rights trans people don't already have.

Lots of other people asked the same question. Not a single response yet. Not one......

RiverTam Hate crimes are clearly defined by the home office. A hate incident (misgendering for example) is not necessarily a crime. Any criminal offence can be a hate crime if it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on disability, race, religion, transgender identity or sexual orientation. Please provide references for your statistics.

The rights transwomen want are to be recognised as women in law straightforwardly without the process being medicalised, through a legal declaration. They don't want spouses from whom they have separated to be able to delay the process. This is a statement of fact, not a statement of support or rejection.

The rights transwomen want are to be recognised as women

The problem with this is that they aren’t actually women.

The 2004 act was a work around to enable marriage and pension rights. It wasn’t to perform miracles.

Why do we always get mansplainers on threads about feminism? How can you be a regular on here and not realize that it is rude to mansplain?

I believe him, when he writes he can't see a problem with men in female spaces., because here he is mansplaining and manspreading by writing more posts than most other posters.

If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem.

The rights transwomen want are to be recognised as women in law straightforwardly without the process being medicalised,

What should the process not be medicalised, DadJoke? Do you think 'being trans' is a medical condition? Or is it just a lifestyle choice? Or something else?

Misgendering isn't a hate incident. Really, it's not. It might, in some circumstances, be impolite or unkind, but it is not a hate incident.

oooh, I had my last comment in this thread deleted at my own request, but it doesn't say that, I hope that isn't counting as a "strike".

And I only wanted it deleted cos I swore a lot not because I was rude to anyone. It was extremely triggering to my ptsd to hear the opinion that OTHER people had the right to give away my sexual boundaries.

But I finally figured out that DadJoke must be trans...

What should the process not be medicalised, DadJoke? Do you think 'being trans' is a medical condition? Or is it just a lifestyle choice? Or something else?

As you ask, my view is that transwomen are male (sex) but women (gender). That makes me horribly transphobic according to TRAs and a misogynist according to GC feminists. The conflation of sex and gender in the 2004 Act and in this one are, I believe, potentially damaging to females, and segregation by sex is sometimes necessary.

Gender identity is actually pretty straight forward. If you answer the question "Are you a woman?" yes, and you have XY chromosomes, you are a transwoman, otherwise you are not (with the very rare exception of intersex people who seem to be co-opted by both sides.)

You can see an internationally recognised defintion of gender identity here. Its broadly the same for the NHS and other national and internaltional bodies.

Misgendering isn't a hate incident. Really, it's not. It might, in some circumstances, be impolite or unkind, but it is not a hate incident

That's just how it's recorded by the home office, which was what I was asked. I don't agree, but just how it is recorded. Like you, I think it's just impolite.

ohello I am not trans. However, I am told that speculating about people's sexuality, ethnic origin or other protected characteristic is at the very least rude, for example a homphobe asking someone if they are a gay.