You can't be 'born in the wrong body'

[Charliethefeminist]

A lot of people watching Butterfly still think it's possible to be 'born in the wrong body'. I wanted to start a thread to explain why it is impossible.

Being 'born in the wrong body' would have to mean there were such things as 'male' and 'female' brains and that it's possible for these to be in an opposite sex body.

Take 'male'. There would have to be a certain thing about the brain that would make it specifically 'male' and that female people don't ever have. Call it Trait M.

Firstly, no such trait M has ever been discovered. No such trait M has ever been described. No such trait M can ever be defined or named, even by the most ardent and medically qualified transadvocates. No such trait M can be found on a brain scan.

This is because male and female people (when male and female are used in the biological sense) can and do share every and any brain trait. There are no brain traits that are unique and exclusive to either sex. That means the 'male' brain and thd 'female' brain don't exist.

The reason we use the words male and female in the first place is to describe biological sex. There is no point to the words otherwise, and if they are taken away from reproductive role, there's no word to describe people with the same reproductive role.

It's clear that male people share personality and style traits right across the spectrum from David Sylvia to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Females share personality and style traits across the spectrum from Ariane Grande to Lea DeLaria.

Transgender people themselves prove that there is no such thing as a male brain in a female body and vice versa. There can be a male brain with personality and style traits across a vast spectrum, but the brain remains male.

Naturally then, society needs to accept once more that men can wear sparkles, pink, high heels and make up, they don't have to say they're a woman to do it. We used to, and we should do again. Especially when it comes to kids.

OK that's it.

Please, someone who can do it shorter and less boringly, please do so. I'm surprised by the number of people who still think it's possible to be 'born in the wrong body'.

The problem with going down the 'born in the wrong body' road is what if you claim to be trans, what if you really feel like you were born in the wrong body, but a brain scan or whatever revealed that just wasn't true? You were in the 'correct' body. Would you automatically lose your trans status?

There are some brain characteristics which are more prevalent in male or female brains apparently, but sometimes females have the more male characteristics and vice versa, so there is no way one could look at a brain and declare it male or female.

I mean it's all such bollocks. Let's girls and boys, play with, do and wear what the fuck they want.

Well I mean male brains and female brains are different. All male brain cells contain a Y chromosome. No female brain cells do. You also have to Co aider the overall effect of endocrine systems on brain function for instance PMS. Then there are also traits of neurological function that are more commonly found amongst men and traits that are more common for instance men by and large have better spacial awareness, women develop language earlier etc. I don't think that enough is known about the brain to categorically say that male and female brains are the same. Ultimately the pint is moot.

The problem with the phrase 'born into the wrong body' is that is raises the question what body was the individual supposed to be born into then? There is no alternative body. People are born with their bodies. As far as we know our personalities and our bodies are irrevocably intertwined and cannot be separated. Your body is your body. You don't have to like it, you can feel uncomfortable in it and envy other people their bodies, many of us do. But there is no such thing as a right or wrong body. It's not a choice, there never was a choice at no point in a individuals development is there an option between a male or a female body. Just the body you have. Thats it.

if the mind believes the body is wrong, then you treat the mind. I find it horrifying that anyone, particularity where children are concerned, could ever think otherwise.

I mean it's all such bollocks. Let's girls and boys, play with, do and wear what the fuck they want

Agree with the short version 100 per cent.

then there are also traits of neurological function that are more commonly found amongst men and traits that are more common for instance men by and large have better spacial awareness, women develop language earlier etc

Problem is, once those traits appear in a brain of the opposite sex, they're no longer exclusive to one sex. They aren't male or female traits because they're in the grains of both sexes. A brain can have a vast vast spectrum of personality traits but only one sex.

So, I agree, male brain has a Y chromosome in each cell. That's the beginning and end of it.

RiverTam
That is now considered by some to be conversion therapy. Bonkers but true.

Yes, this 100%.

I was reading the Twitter response last night and was surprised at how many people think this is possible.

Also they think disagreement is hate.

I didn't see any hate towards trans children last night - I saw lots of people who care deeply about children trying to get the message across that we should be teaching confused children to love their biological bodies.

This was then taken and mistranslated - even by the MP Dawn Butler - into hate speech against trans children.

I despair.

You're right, OP. It's bunkum.

What I imagine is the case is that it is possible to feel as if you've been born into the wrong body. But that's a whole different matter, isn't it?

I know. I couldn't give a shit. To chemically and surgically mutilate a healthy body when it is the mind that is struggling is monstrous.

Paris Lees is tweeting about suicide a lot and blaming journalists. I think there's a genuine TRA sense of feeling pissed off that this week and Butterfly were supposed to be the walk to the podium but it's all being ruined by meanies who know stuff.

What I imagine is the case is that it is possible to feel as if you've been born into the wrong body.
But you can never know what it would be like to have been born in a different body. Thinking your body is wrong is not the same as knowing what would make it 'right'.

It’s a faith based position. If you believe in souls, it’s as though the angels decanted one into the wrong body.

But those who believe in souls also tend to believe that an Omniscient God doesn’t make mistakes. So that falls down too.

Nobody is born in the wrong body. Many people experience a serious and debilitating alienation or disgust at their body. All forms of that (anorexia, Body dysmorphic disorder, gender dysphoria) are illnesses.

It’s biologically impossible to change sex. No one is born in the wrong body.

Paris Lees is majorly pushing the narrative that being suicidal is part and parcel of being trans at the moment.

Paris Lees is tweeting about suicide a lot and blaming journalists.
There's certainly been a lot of irresponsible reporting about suicide, but Lees is one of the journalists responsible for the irresponsible reporting.

then perhaps Paris should also be pushing better mental health support, instead of berating those who believe in reality not delusion.

seriously, these people are incredibly dimwitted.

Not being funny but I think PL's phone stopped ringing and PL wants back in to the news narrative. Having pushed #nodebate for so long however, it seems journalists are taking PL at PL's word.

I was born in the wrong body - I have two autoimmune disorders , which means my body hates me. And I'm autistic- so my brain is wired wrong. Where's my prime time ITV drama ?

You are your body - unless you believe in souls there isn't some essential 'you' that is not your body. ( I think St Thomas Aquinas has a lot to answer for)

It's dualism, which is a religious belief.

These people, who believe in the wrong body trans theory, are followers of a religion. But, unlike any other religion in history, they don't know it's a religion.

I am an atheist. I don't believe in a soul which is separate from the human body. Therefore I do not believe you can have special "gendered" souls which can be "born" in the wrong body.

I believe that people can feel that they were born in the wrong body.

It is possible that that there is a physical reason relating to the brain why people may feel that way but currently there is no evidence.

We know that there are some minor structural difference between the brains of males and females but the differential is so small that there is actually more variation in one sex than between sexed. Hence no such thing as a typical female or male brain.

It's also important to note that most brain studies on transwomen were actually conducted on transsexual males, individuals who have a body dysmorphia relating to their sexual characteristics Their brain scans showed similarities to sufferers of other dysmorphia conditions. We don't know if these similarities are the cause of the dysmorphia or the result of dysmorphia because human brains are responsive to their environment. Placisity is the word I think.

I think it's a phrase used to mean too many different things.

It's Jan Morris's phrase originally, isn't it? Used to explain just how deep the gulf seemed to be between outer appearance and inner perception of who and what they were - presumably built up out of years of watching other people, reading books and account of lives, and 'identifying' or not with what they saw and read.

I think a young child saying that means 'I wish I had the opposite-sex body, then no one would look twice at me doing the sort of things I like.'

I think teenage girls declaring themselves to be 'in the wrong body' are often saying 'Stop looking at me as if I was just a female body, when you know nothing about my mind.'

(Quite a few teenage boys and mid-life-crisis blokes, on the other hand, seem to be saying 'Look, look at my hot body! No, honestly, I'm REALLY SEXY!')

I'm definitely in the wrong body. Someone accidentally gave me something short, dumpy, myopic and greying. Would whoever has my authentic, raven-haired, athletic, keen-eyed self please hand it back?

It's a subject I admit I know little about, but it does strike me as odd that an awful lot of men who state they were born in the wrong body seem to have chosen a highly stylised version of a woman, one that conforms to the popular image of a sexually attractive young female adult. Very few seem to want a body that looks how most women actually are?

These people have been told by a sexist, intolerant society that their personality is wrong for their body.

I was born in the wrong body, I should be tall and thin, instead I'm short and fat.