You can't be 'born in the wrong body'

[Charliethefeminist]

A lot of people watching Butterfly still think it's possible to be 'born in the wrong body'. I wanted to start a thread to explain why it is impossible.

Being 'born in the wrong body' would have to mean there were such things as 'male' and 'female' brains and that it's possible for these to be in an opposite sex body.

Take 'male'. There would have to be a certain thing about the brain that would make it specifically 'male' and that female people don't ever have. Call it Trait M.

Firstly, no such trait M has ever been discovered. No such trait M has ever been described. No such trait M can ever be defined or named, even by the most ardent and medically qualified transadvocates. No such trait M can be found on a brain scan.

This is because male and female people (when male and female are used in the biological sense) can and do share every and any brain trait. There are no brain traits that are unique and exclusive to either sex. That means the 'male' brain and thd 'female' brain don't exist.

The reason we use the words male and female in the first place is to describe biological sex. There is no point to the words otherwise, and if they are taken away from reproductive role, there's no word to describe people with the same reproductive role.

It's clear that male people share personality and style traits right across the spectrum from David Sylvia to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Females share personality and style traits across the spectrum from Ariane Grande to Lea DeLaria.

Transgender people themselves prove that there is no such thing as a male brain in a female body and vice versa. There can be a male brain with personality and style traits across a vast spectrum, but the brain remains male.

Naturally then, society needs to accept once more that men can wear sparkles, pink, high heels and make up, they don't have to say they're a woman to do it. We used to, and we should do again. Especially when it comes to kids.

OK that's it.

How much of the limited difference between male and female brains is innate though? We don't routinely scan newborn babies (for obvious reasons) so we can't say how early these differences appear.

Yes, there is this as well. The brain is highly susceptible to outside factors. Its why children who don't have the necessary care and attachment as babies and young children can end up actually technically brain damaged, because certain connections in the brain are never made (that is a crap and simplistic way of describing it, but I think that's it in a nutshell).

I'm going to disengage, because the only way this discussion can go is down the
wormhole of "real" and how anything is real outside of our conscious experience and I just don't have the headspace, but I think the model of "real" that's being used here is reductionist at best.

Science and medicine aren't bothered about souls or consciousness or defining reality. It looks to help people who are suffering and distressed, and it accepts that people's conscious experience is their reality. At the moment the best we can do is balance the harm of someone's distress against the harm and potential harm of modifying their body. Sometimes the calculus comes down, so far as we can tell and with the tools we currently have, on the side of it being best for the personto modify the body.

I think that there are parts of "the brain" which relate to "the body" (because in reality these two things are not as separate as once thought) differently according to sex. Because you need some different structures in "the brain" depending on your sex - for example you will need different "wiring" to relate to a female reproductive system than to a male reproductive system.

But this is different to saying that there is a "female brain" which just loves sacrificing for others or a "male brain" which just loves being the one in charge. Which is where the transrights ideology goes wildly offtrack and becomes dangerous to women.

I think that for some people there is some miswiring which means that they get some aspects of brain function which are for the female body but they have a male body.

They therefore feel like they are born in the wrong body - and saying that they were born in the wrong body is as valid as saying that there is a problem with their wiring. There is a fundamental mismatch. And in some cases it may be that changing the body can go some way to relieving the distressing dissonance.

But I think that this is a teeny part of the population. And there are a number of other reasons why people may present as uncomfortable with their physical form - including significant trauma or other social and environmental factors, personality disorders etc

The point is its a complex health problem that experts don't know much about really. And the problem is that because the issue has been hijacked by (inevitably male) political ideologists and used as a vehicle to push a repressive agenda what is a serious health condition has become fodder for public debate. And I think that in this debate there can be a lack of compassion and understanding for people who do suffer what must be an awful condition.

I think that for some people there is some miswiring which means that they get some aspects of brain function which are for the female body but they have a male body.

So then if this is a miswiring during gestation, how does it explain the 80% of girls who desist and later become perfectly happy women in their female bodies? And how do we account for stats like that when trying to help people?

(not directed at any poster in general, just the concept)

So then if this is a miswiring during gestation, how does it explain the 80% of girls who desist and later become perfectly happy women in their female bodies? And how do we account for stats like that when trying to help people?

Because there are a number of reasons why people may feel dissonance with their physical form - so maybe for them they feel that way because of social or environmental reasons, maybe the "miswiring" resolves as their physical form matures. Its a very complex issue.

Which is why self id is ridiculous - and will cause as much harm to people seeking to transition as others - because it only reduces the creation of a rigorous process of support and intervention.

If there are numerous scientific reasons why self id is bad; and numerous social reasons why self id is bad; and numerous safety reasons why self id is bad; and numerous health reasons why self id is bad....

You have to look at who is saying it's good and why.

And that always, but always, boils right down to a group of aggressive, loud, patriarchal men wanting their own way and to using their male privilege to get it.

ShotsFired - I agree.

But my point is that in opposing this the narrative can lack compassion and understanding of people who do have gender/sex dysphoria.

I don't have a problem with someone saying they were "born in the wrong body" and making an informed choice that for them a physical and social transition may alleviate some of their distress.

I DO have a problem with that someone having the right to be in single sex spaces and being used to reinforce unhelpful gender stereotypes.

It's dualism, which is a religious belief.

Yes.

Jean Hatchett hits the nail on the head. We should just reply 'prove it' when people say things like 'born in the wrong body'. That dualism is a philosophical notion and transgenderism a faith is easily proved. Where is the proof that it is possible to be born in the wrong body?

Prove it.

Sometimes the calculus comes down, so far as we can tell and with the tools we currently have, on the side of it being best for the personto modify the body.

I have had discussions about this with transwomen and transmen who have come on here and been willing to discuss their experience. As far as I can gather from those discussions, it is true that sometimes modification of the body is the only way to relieve distress. But because it is such an extreme solution, and because it is irreversible, it seems obvious that it should only be used in the most extreme cases, in which all other possible remedies and treatments have failed.

The problem with the Mermaids line is, it goes something like - 'Feel a bit unhappy about your body? Think you'd be happier being the opposite sex? Take puberty blockers and all your problems will be solved.'

To chemically and surgically mutilate a healthy body when it is the mind that is struggling is monstrous.

People do it all the time with cosmetic surgery though.

We allow them to do that.

My view, having read a lot of psychology and a fair amount about neuropsychology and genetics, is that we are only scratching the surface of these subjects at present.

Which is why I disagree with making any absolutist pronouncements about either the existence or the non-existence of innate sex differences in the brain regarding sex differences in behaviour. I just don't think we know enough.

Additionally, so much of the brain's operation is at the unconscious level, that I also don't think we can be certain that there isn't some kind of innate "knowing-what-sex-I-am" process that comes on line at around age 3. If such a process did exist, it would theoretically be possible for it to go wrong. So I also don't think we can definitely say that classic transsexualism is purely based on socialisation, although equally we can't say that it definitely isn't.. (I don't include Autogynephiles and ROGDs in this.)

All the explanations given, miswiring etc, are possible explanations for why you might feel you were born in the wrong body.

Nobody denies you can feel that way.

I'm saying, we are saying, you can't. Nobody's saying 'it's impossible and they are lying when they say they feel that way'. Nobody's saying 'they are wrong so don't feel compadsion'. Nobody's making a judgement and recommending being callous. It's just stating a fact: it is absolute impossible.

One day they might find a unique and exclusive distinguishing factor between two sets of brains. But that factor will not, cannot be male or female unless it is found in all and exclusively biological sex female brains and not at all, ever in biological sex male brains. In which case, it simply proves that males and females have different brains, not that they can be 'in the wrong body'.

If the factor was found in brains of both biological sexes it would be detached completely and utterly from biological sex. Perhaps it could have a new name. Because biological sex remains as a material fact with the names male and female.

The trouble is, dualism is not just a religious belief. There is evidence that it is likely to be the intuitive "default" setting for humans, which for most of us requires education and conscious effort to suppress. This article discusses this:

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-self-illusion/201210/mind-body-dualism-is-not-always-healthy

That's why you won't persuade most people just by arguing with them. Dualism is based on an intuitive feeling most people have, rather than a consciously-chosen belief, or an indoctrinated religious ideology. If we want to make any headway with individuals, I think it's important to recognise that feeling as natural and understandable, even while explaining that the evidence points the other way.

But the brain is not a disconnected entity? The notion of mind/body separation is increasingly being reconsidered.

The point is that there is so much that is unknown. My own view is that it is very likely that there are differences between the "brains" of men and women in some aspects relating to how the two different bodies operate. Neurons must fire differently to tell a body to pee the way a male body does than the way a female body does.

These differences are as much biological as the external physical differences. So when this goes wrong do you say the person's "brain" is wrong or their body?

I think that the emphasis should be on the fact that we segregate the sexes based on the external manifestations of their biology - basically dicks and greater strength.

So there is no real need to consider whether someone is born in the wrong body or not.

The point is simply that regardless of a person's internal state and whether or not they suffer from a particular health condition - we separate certain spaces and rights because of particular aspects of external biology.

Fuck off, Paris.

This is known FFSFFS. It is known because it is necessarily true. It will always be true, no matter what scientific discoveries are made about brain wiring.

Scientific pursuit may explain why people feel this way, but it will never discover that a male brain can be in a female body, and vice versa.

Without reading the thread, I was discussing this exact phrase with a very GC friend (we established she's GC through a chat) but she still felt there were, rarely, some people who were born in the wrong body. It was then that I realised that this exact phrase is what's doing all the damage. She meant dysphoric but used that phrase.

I taught a gender non conforming child with autism who was struggling because of a gendered society but it was that phrase that meant it became serious as they then believed it and wanted an operation when older (they were 8/9). Tavistock seemingly helped them loads and they were happier, happy with body and no moves to transition. But that bastard phrase...

I think it's very important to show how it is absolutely impossible to have a female brain in a male body and vice versa. Not just rare - impossible.

Saying that is not to say people are lying about how they feel, nor to say we should not feel compassion and help people who feel that way.

But we must say and be able to say that is does not happen, has never happened and will not happen.

But what do you mean by "brain" and what do you mean by "the body"?

How can you definitively state that it is impossible that some internal neurological function correlates to the external physical form?

You just can't state that this is an impossibility.

I agree that you can't be born in the 'wrong body' but what, then, is Gender Dysphoria? A mental illness? And should the illness be treated (by trying to get the dysphoric individual to accept their sex) rather than changing the body to fit the illness?

Imagine if you have neurological function ¥ that is deemed to be a male neurological function.

That neurological function ¥ is then found in the brain of a biological sex female.

That instantly and necessarily shows that ¥ is not a male neurological function because it is not uniquely and exclusively found in the male brain. It is a shared neurological function.

Princess, yes, in cases of dysphoria. But where people just want to present according to a different gender stereotype, so what. People should be able to present how they want, without being told they're the wrong sex. Or feeling they have to say they're the wrong sex or opposite sex.

yes, its a mental illness. TRAs have worked tirelessly to get it not treated as a mental illness to the very great detriment of people's health. It's morally reprehensible in every regard.

Couldn't agree more Charlie and its interesting how 20 or 30 years ago you could have effeminate men who didn't feel the need to redefine themselves as women... dandys, new romantics etc. anyone remember Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen?

Now they'd all be called 'genderqueer' or come under the trans umbrella.

Imagine that two neurological functions are discovered, ¥ and §. They are found the brains of both biological sex males and biological sex females. But they are never found together.

In which case, you have unique and identifying neurological factors for two group of people. But they are not male or female identifiers, because they are found across both groups.

Imagine you find that a specific neurological function ¢ in trans people across both biological sexes. That is not an identifier that people are the opposite sex. It's an identifier for feeling that you are the opposite sex.