You can't be 'born in the wrong body'

[Charliethefeminist]

A lot of people watching Butterfly still think it's possible to be 'born in the wrong body'. I wanted to start a thread to explain why it is impossible.

Being 'born in the wrong body' would have to mean there were such things as 'male' and 'female' brains and that it's possible for these to be in an opposite sex body.

Take 'male'. There would have to be a certain thing about the brain that would make it specifically 'male' and that female people don't ever have. Call it Trait M.

Firstly, no such trait M has ever been discovered. No such trait M has ever been described. No such trait M can ever be defined or named, even by the most ardent and medically qualified transadvocates. No such trait M can be found on a brain scan.

This is because male and female people (when male and female are used in the biological sense) can and do share every and any brain trait. There are no brain traits that are unique and exclusive to either sex. That means the 'male' brain and thd 'female' brain don't exist.

The reason we use the words male and female in the first place is to describe biological sex. There is no point to the words otherwise, and if they are taken away from reproductive role, there's no word to describe people with the same reproductive role.

It's clear that male people share personality and style traits right across the spectrum from David Sylvia to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Females share personality and style traits across the spectrum from Ariane Grande to Lea DeLaria.

Transgender people themselves prove that there is no such thing as a male brain in a female body and vice versa. There can be a male brain with personality and style traits across a vast spectrum, but the brain remains male.

Naturally then, society needs to accept once more that men can wear sparkles, pink, high heels and make up, they don't have to say they're a woman to do it. We used to, and we should do again. Especially when it comes to kids.

OK that's it.

Tom Cruises height is not evidence that growth is unrelated to puberty.

My point is that somebody who did not go through puberty would not reach the same adult height that they would if they did go through puberty.

Although of course most people go through puberty.

Luggsays Yes, it does seem like the theory you are describing could be a possibility. We might find out in the not too distant future, if it turns out to be linked to a genetic variant.

This paper seems to be a fairly balanced take on whether this is a possibility, while criticising media hype around it.

blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2018/03/22/20-gene-variants-and-transgender-identity-what-does-it-mean/

SomeDyke I agree, in that if brain sex differences were to exist, I would expect them to be in areas related to mate choice, sexual behaviour, that sort of thing, as that would make the most sense in terms of being where pressure of natural selection would be most likely to apply.

Genuinely wondering how many of you with these views have experience of this first hand.

checks materialist’s work
puts red pen away.

Yup. More variation with the group than between the groups. Same as race actually.

Neither puberty nor the blockers have an overriding influence on the development of the skeleton though

Blockers have have some quite scary effects on bone - they’re associated with severe bone thinning and there are a lot of reports of joint damage. Puberty basically doubles the mass of the skeletal system and gives you most of your adult bone mass so if you mess with that you risk a lower density as well (ie there’s passive non growth as well as active damage.) there aren’t big differences between the sexes before puberty but there are after - the sex hormones play an important role.

All yet another example of how important the actual process of puberty is for the development of the adult. and worth reiterating that a child on blockers then cross sex hormones does not go through a ‘correct, opposite sex puberty.’

We have no idea what the long term effects on these kids will be. We know that blockers have serious multisystem effects and we know that puberty itself is vital. My heart breaks for the kids themselves and I am just beyond words at any medical professional who sanctions this. It is going to be the scandal of our era.

I didn't want to be an adult female. I was happy to stay as a child, forever! However, I did come to terms with my adult body. It did seem to me to be a very scary thing to go through, especially as a female. I did like my body though.

I also wanted to be a nun. I spoke to a priest about it. He told me that these feelings are very common in young girls, my heroine was Joan of Arc - she still is. This feeling of wanting to be a nun lasted a year. I became an atheist from the age of 10.

My post is in reply to justwantcheese

You can't be born in the wrong body but you can believe you were. This is a psychological/mental abnormality. There are rare cases of brain damaged people who don't believe that one of their limbs belongs to them, causing extreme distress.
Anorexia sufferers have a highly distorted view of their body image.
There can be therefore a disconnect between the body as it is in reality and the brain's conception of what the body "should" be. To me it seems obvious that we should not assume that the way to address this is by complying with the delusion-or we would also be allowing anorexics to starve and amputating healthy limbs.

Blockers have have some quite scary effects on bone - they’re associated with severe bone thinning and there are a lot of reports of joint damage.

That isn't an overriding influence though on overall skeletal height. It's a result of medicinal sequalae. Suzy Green's child grew to 6ft in height, despite puberty blockers and surgery pre 16 years old

Yup. More variation with the group than between the groups. Same as race actually.

I had this conversation with some moron online over basketball.

He/she (I’m not being transphobic, I just never asked) thought it would be a waste of time offering basketball try-outs to Asians because they are too short.

He/she couldn’t get their head around the concept of variation: all they saw was difference in means.

If the mean Asian height is less than the mean Black or Caucasian height then they thought all Asians are shorter.

regarding the " born in the wrong body " thing. It's just a metaphor, and it has taken on a life of it's own. Some transsexual women and men use it too, because then people seem to " get it" in that they can then imagine that it s a lifelong thing, etc not a whim. . It's a short hand. No-one who thinks about it at all thinks it is actually , literally " true".

I would never use it myself,

It's difficult though as the gender non conforming child I taught caught hold of that phrase and then that was it. That was the answer. Young children are literal. Many people don't understand biology much and literally think this is the case. When really, he and his body weren't the problem, the society around him was. Luckily he was carefully helped to see this but it was definitely a confusing time for all.

I was discussing everything with a friend the other day and she agreed with all that is generally said under the GC feminist banner around this except she still said that she believes there are people who genuinely feel they're born in the wrong body / are. Her own daughter is very gender non conforming, they celebrate it, (the daughter is awesome btw) but at one point apparently they did ask if she felt she was in the 'wrong body.' She really didn't as she's been brought up to be so level headed and to be herself but now I actually think even suggesting it to a child could give self doubt.

Functional vagina = a hole for a dick

I think that’s what Jazz and the TRA’s think. They dismiss that we use it to birth children and to experience sexual pleasure ourselves because that doesn’t matter to them. The TRA’s version of a woman is just a blow up fuck doll made to exist for men’s needs. Jazz et al don’t have gender dysphoria or body dysphoria or any rational term that explains what transexuals have. They don’t want to be an actual woman, they want to be a doll. Such a shame for Jazz, he may never get to experience an orgasm ever between his deformed micro penis and the ‘functional’ hole the doctors are creating for him. How any parent can do that to their kid is beyond me.

Socialisation occurs within animal kingdom all the time. How strange to think it doesn’t.

I’ve never understood why he’s considered freakishly short

He plays roles where the character is supposed to be 6'6".

And he wears heels because he has an inadequency over his own height.

He also believes in brainwashing people as part of religion.

Marshmallow Mixed socialisation occurs within certain groups of animals, especially birds, but they are not mammals. But lower mammals are very wary of males within the group, mixed grouping beyond maturity is highly unusual.

It's not socialisation as humans know it though. It's enforcement of intuitive behaviour, that is essential for survival in the wild.