You can't be 'born in the wrong body'

[Charliethefeminist]

A lot of people watching Butterfly still think it's possible to be 'born in the wrong body'. I wanted to start a thread to explain why it is impossible.

Being 'born in the wrong body' would have to mean there were such things as 'male' and 'female' brains and that it's possible for these to be in an opposite sex body.

Take 'male'. There would have to be a certain thing about the brain that would make it specifically 'male' and that female people don't ever have. Call it Trait M.

Firstly, no such trait M has ever been discovered. No such trait M has ever been described. No such trait M can ever be defined or named, even by the most ardent and medically qualified transadvocates. No such trait M can be found on a brain scan.

This is because male and female people (when male and female are used in the biological sense) can and do share every and any brain trait. There are no brain traits that are unique and exclusive to either sex. That means the 'male' brain and thd 'female' brain don't exist.

The reason we use the words male and female in the first place is to describe biological sex. There is no point to the words otherwise, and if they are taken away from reproductive role, there's no word to describe people with the same reproductive role.

It's clear that male people share personality and style traits right across the spectrum from David Sylvia to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Females share personality and style traits across the spectrum from Ariane Grande to Lea DeLaria.

Transgender people themselves prove that there is no such thing as a male brain in a female body and vice versa. There can be a male brain with personality and style traits across a vast spectrum, but the brain remains male.

Naturally then, society needs to accept once more that men can wear sparkles, pink, high heels and make up, they don't have to say they're a woman to do it. We used to, and we should do again. Especially when it comes to kids.

OK that's it.

Longer term survey results from Sweden reveal that even after 'transition' mental health issues, including suicidal thoughts, are still very much heightened in trans people. If self acceptance and personal identity is so totally dependent on forcing the world to keep confirming it for you ( by denying reality and truth); then that identity and sense of self must be built on incredibly shaky foundations.

Trans to F people such as Debbie Hayton have realised that a stronger more confident sense of self and personal identity, comes from the acceptance of certain realities and facts. In Debbie's case that s/he identifies with women, but realises that s/he is not a woman.

The 'wrong body' phrase implies that the 'right' body is out there somewhere, and there has just been a swap over somewhere along the line, instead of a fascinating, complicated and miraculous process of development in the womb.

I agree people may be hugely unhappy with their body, but there is no separation of body & 'mind'. People should be able to express and live in whatever way helps them get by, but nobody else is compelled to subscribe to that interpretation if they don't want to.

We know that there are some minor structural difference between the brains of males and females but the differential is so small that there is actually more variation in one sex than between sexed.

My understanding was that there is no way to tell the difference between a male and a female brain if you don't know whose brain it is.

People need to be able to accept themselves as they are. This would demonstrate maturity and a strength of character, which sadly, many of these high profile trans people seem to be lacking. They need to concentrate on being decent human beings which is far more important than woolly gender feelz.

Clearly, you cannot be born 'in the wrong body'. You can, however, be deeply unhappy about the body you were born with, the short legs, big nose, breast shape, your whole face... may all feel wrong.
That is why plastic surgery is booming. And if this feeling is intense, and debilitating, all consuming, that is dysphoria.

I believe, gender dysphoria is not so different. Of course, in the case of gender, the different, stereotypical roles of men and women in the world as well as the respected 'accepted' (hetero)sexual orientation may have an additional influence.

You can no more be in the wrong body than a tree can be made out of the wrong wood.

I'm not so sure about this. It's known to happen that people can experience a brain trauma of some kind (TBI, mini-stroke, severe illness) and become utterly convinced a part of their body doesn't belong to them, which causes them huge distress and often causes them to try and cut the offending part off. Something they have recognised their whole life as their own hand or leg becomes an alien extrusion that they can't bear.

It seems to me that part of the brain functions as a psychokinetic "map" of the body and causes us to "recognise" our body as our own. I do wonder if it's possible for the map in your brain to say that, e.g., female genitalia should be there and for the sight of male instead, or vice versa, to cause huge distress.

I'm not saying this is a complete answer to the issue of trans people and their rights. I'm saying there is precedent for people's brains to tell them that their body is wrong.

You can no more be in the wrong body than a tree can be made out of the wrong wood

Holy crap. Can I steal this.

I am 5ft nothing. When I was younger I hated being short and knackered my feet with stupid heels. If someone had offered me a drug to make me tall I would have taken it. I wanted to go into the police but wasn't tall enough back then. Even now, I think life would be easier if I had just a few more inches - clothes, top shelf of supermarkets, lecterns when I speak at conference (you literally can't see me - designed by and for men). But I wasn't born in the wrong body, I just learnt to accept the body I have.

We don't treat anorexia but agreeing kids are fat and advising extreme diets.

It is actually crazy.

Ultimately, you do have to accept yourself for who and what you are. You are right, it is maturity.
I have had to learn that I cannot be what I think I 'should be' or be what other people think I 'should be' I am just me and that is enough.

My understanding was that there is no way to tell the difference between a male and a female brain if you don't know whose brain it is.

Yes. The averages differ. You basically have two Gaussian distributions with different means that overlap. No way to tell the sex of one specific brain.

Countess peoples' brains may well be telling them they are in the wrong body, but that then is the condition which needs managing, not the body itself.
Your brain is your body.

Yes Aspie!

Gender is socially constructed, we are influenced from birth to assimilate and adhere to certain roles, beliefs and values based on our genetic makeup.

We’re not born knowing how to be a girl/woman or boy/man, we are conditioned with societal expectations to fulfill these gender roles.

Gender socialisation is THE strongest influence throughout our lives, literally from the day we’re born till the day we die. If a person does not assimilate to these expectations then it would seem impossible to interpret that as anything other then ‘being born into the wrong body’ Such is the overwhelming influence of gender roles and stereotypes not to mention the almost entirely subconscious way these are introduced and encouraged.

If everything and everyone around constantly ‘says’ the way you behave, the way you look, the role that you play, does not belong to your body type, I can see that it would be easier to believe that my body is wrong as opposed to the deeply ingrained sense of my being is wrong.

To chemically and surgically mutilate a healthy body when it is the mind that is struggling is monstrous.

It is. Monstrous. THAT is what will be judged by History and those that supported it 'on the wrong side' .

peoples' brains may well be telling them they are in the wrong body, but that then is the condition which needs managing, not the body itself

But what do you do if the little part of the map which says "right hand, mine" is simply gone, destroyed? You can't replace it. All you can do is counsel the person to try and decrease their distress. If their distress is severe enough sometimes the treatment is amputation.

My understanding was that there is no way to tell the difference between a male and a female brain if you don't know whose brain it is.

I agree, but the scientists looking for these differences knew which scans were from males and females so were able to spot some minor differences. But acknowledged that due to the larger variation within the sexes and issues with placisity that this was not evidence of a male or female "brain type".

Sorry if I was unclear.

A lot of people seem to think that if you can say something with words, that makes it true. There’s another current thread in Feminism Chat that exists solely on this premise.

i seriously doubt that the trauma described by Countess is what's going on with the majority of 'so-called trans people these days. But even so, it's still a mental health issue!

OP 👏🏼

dolorsit

I haven't seen that study. Do you have a link to it? Or some details like authors, title, journal so that I can find it?

Agree countess. Sometimes the most suitable treatment is amputation - as much as it seems to offend against all reason to cut off an healthy limb because of the phantom pains that the patient feels. But in those cases, nobody is saying that the person affected had a soul that was always meant to be, for instance, legless.

There are severe psychological conditions behind all these feelings of discomfort with healthy bodies. But only in the case of the Trans Ideology do we make up, on the basis of absolutely no evidence, some sort of quasi spiritual cause for it and then treat that rationale as either scientific or religious fact.

Gender socialisation is THE strongest influence throughout our lives, literally from the day we’re born till the day we die

I wish people knew this. I didnt know it until two years ago.

Countess
All you can do is counsel the person to try and decrease their distress. If their distress is severe enough sometimes the treatment is amputation.

The problem with the current narrative is that they're going straight to the 'amputation' (puberty blockers, hormones, surgery) without doing the counselling bit first. The counselling is now looked upon as 'conversion therapy'.