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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Aggressive Feminism Boards

999 replies

PerverseConverse · 07/10/2018 09:38

I've been on this board for a while now and long enough to understand the issues and why women are so vocal about them and angry that our rights are threatened.
I'm frustrated reading on other threads, or on social media that this board is aggressive, shoots down discussion, and calls people names if their views don't match the majority. I can't say that I've seen that myself. All I see is intelligent discussion and persuasive arguments. Any goadiness is appropriately dealt with from what I've read as are any views that don't match reality. Maybe that's what upsets people: that their delusions are challenged with indisputable reality.
I'm still new to feminism and learning daily but I see women fighting for other women and prepared to get flak for that. I see some women who have been well and truly brainwashed by the trans movement and by men and the patriarchy in general. And that's the other criticism: that we are too focused on the trans issue. That makes me angry. The trans issue is the major one affecting women and girls at the moment and it's right that we are focused on it.
These complaints are coming from women who are calling themselves feminists and it baffles me completely that feminists can't understand the biggest threat to women and girls.
Now, I'm aware these so called feminists may well be trolls but I don't think they all are. How can some feminists be so opposed to other feminists passionately protecting their rights? Rights that are for ALL women.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
pennydrew · 07/10/2018 12:01

Look people, it’s in every cell of our body. We all know what Male and female is. Don’t even bother arguing these points. Please 🙄

Elephantinacravat · 07/10/2018 12:01

Is it like a crib sheet cut and paste or something on here? It's robotic like.

Ermmmmm.... A poster is critiquing my definition of woman (which is exactly the sort of discussion I want). I have responded by asking what their definition is, in order that we can discuss that.

This is what debate looks like.

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 12:01

No I don't think there is a 3rd sex

Then perhaps stop using this extremely poor and offensive talking point as an argument.

R0wantrees · 07/10/2018 12:01

By way of context, actual aggressions and intimidatory acts towards women by 'trans-rights' activists':

(extract)
"Sunday Times research shows that at least 15 public meetings held by feminist groups opposed to the proposals have been invaded, threatened, picketed, closed down or forced to move venue by transgender activists.

There have been at least six incidents of violence or intimidation against opponents of the reforms, with one trans activist convicted of assault. At least 11 opponents of the change have been targeted through their jobs.

Trans campaigners are bringing private criminal prosecutions against three opponents after the authorities refused to prosecute them.

Feminists say the reforms would allow any man who identified as a woman into protected female spaces such as changing rooms. Trans activists say anyone who identifies as a woman must be treated as such.

Among the meetings attacked was one in Bristol by the group We Need To Talk, where a group of masked men and male-bodied people entered the premises and blocked women from getting into the meeting room. “I was frightened, extremely frightened,” said Heather Brunskell-Evans, one of the speakers, who said she was trapped on a narrow staircase. “They were shouting I was a Nazi — there was a man looming above me, pushing his chest into my face. I looked back and saw I had a number of steps to fall down — and I thought, God, I could really seriously damage myself.”

Hadie Abido, co-founder of the Jam Jar arts space where the meeting was held, said there was a “campaign of hatred” against the venue with “hundreds of messages” demanding the event be cancelled. He said Jam Jar had asked for evidence that the group was hateful.

A feminist meeting in Leeds was cancelled at three hours’ notice by the local council last month, which said the organisation holding it, Woman’s Place UK, breached its “values on gender and equality”. The council declined to say how the group breached its values.

Incidents of violence and intimidation include an assault at Speakers’ Corner last year, and an attack by trans activists on a trade union official, Paula Lamont, on a picket line in March. “They suddenly started screaming, they all came around me,” Lamont said. “They were all trying to push me, shouting ‘get her out of here’. Thank God the police were there.”

One opponent of the reforms who works for a multinational said: “I was sent screenshots of trans activists discussing [on a private Facebook group] a public campaign against my employer to get me sacked. Months later, I can still feel my voice going funny when I talk about it.”

Transgender activists have tried to organise an advertising boycott of the Mumsnet website for allowing criticism of the reforms, and of newspapers for reporting the case of Martin Ponting, now Jessica Winfield, a double rapist moved to a women’s jail after having a sex-change operation.

Politicians and trade union officials have been subjected to what a former Green member of the London assembly, Darren Johnson, called “ridiculous trumped-up complaints from transgender ideologues”. At least 11 have been targeted, though he is not among them." (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3386895-The-Sunday-Times-exposes-the-full-scale-of-an-activist-silencing-campaign-against-opponents-of-controversial-gender-reforms

SpannerInTheWorks · 07/10/2018 12:01

I think there is a definition that is wider than only biological function, or absence of it

Ok so asking the obvious question (and apologies if you have already posted it and I've missed it) : what is your definition?

TeddyIsaHe · 07/10/2018 12:02

I’m going to say this for the hundredth time. I am NOT complaining about the type of feminism or views or even women being ‘nice’. My issue is that if I dare to say anything against the grain I am shouted down, told to leave, told I’m not the right sort of feminist (which you just have in so many words). Etc etc. How can you not see this?

pennydrew · 07/10/2018 12:02

TeddyIsaHe

I wasn’t ‘telling’ you not to, it’s obvious I mean like, you have the option not to come here. This is just derailment. We have stuff to do

Bowlofbabelfish · 07/10/2018 12:02

I’ll tell you what though, just saying no to the demands to be nicer/less demanding/shrill/aggressive - it’s liberating.

So be nice. Go for it. They will eat you last - but they will still eat you.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/10/2018 12:03

Think like me or go away!

Think whatever you like.
But if you say what you think here, be prepared to defend it.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 12:04

But its hard to understand why you want to come here if you hate it so much.
It isn't limited to just here though. It's now in AIBU, it was in site stuff.

I've seen it on posts about school toilets. You can't avoid it.

Elephantinacravat · 07/10/2018 12:05

Well if we are going to use the 'denotes to be of the sex class which produces ova' does that mean that the only transwomen which are women are ones who 'pass'?

Ereshkigal · 07/10/2018 12:05

I've seen it on posts about school toilets. You can't avoid it.

If you're going to try and tone police AIBU you're onto a loser there, Teddy.

TeddyIsaHe · 07/10/2018 12:05

Oh I’m not saying just you penny it’s a board-wide issue. All along the same lines.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 07/10/2018 12:06
pennydrew · 07/10/2018 12:07

TeddyIsaHe

Please stop deliberately and repeatedly twisting my words.

I am making a very valid point. If this is such an awful space, so horrible, why would you come here? I have NOT told you you’re not the right sort of feminist. I’m making a general statement.

I don’t see people ‘shouted down’. What does that even mean? We’re all adults. Stop gone policing. Some people are more blunt than others, why do we all have to expend do micj emotional labour each and every time we interact, just to avoid hurting an adults sensitivities. I’m not saying we should be nasty, but you just have to roll with it. This space is no different to real life. You have to not invest so much in how other people speak, or take it so fucking personally.

I’m making a pretty simple and common suggestion. That is, you either accept the space and deal with the assertive challenging interactions you’ll find, or not. But just stop whinging about it. It’s a distraction from more important things.

Earlywalker · 07/10/2018 12:07

*Elephantinacravat

Well if we are going to use the 'denotes to be of the sex class which produces ova' does that mean that the only transwomen which are women are ones who 'pass'? *

You tell me, it’s the definition that you have all been putting up on billboards and using as your ‘shut down’ argument. Surely you know what it means?

VerbeenaBeeks · 07/10/2018 12:08

I’m going to say this for the hundredth time. I am NOT complaining about the type of feminism or views or even women being ‘nice’. My issue is that if I dare to say anything against the grain I am shouted down, told to leave, told I’m not the right sort of feminist (which you just have in so many words). Etc etc. How can you not see this?

Agree, it's unbelievable even though this thread shows perfectly, some must go round with their eyes firmly welded shut or something! How can you not see this?
Exactly. It's fascinating really, an insight into closed up minds how shut tight and unseeingly rigid some are, people are repeatedly answering but no-one wants to or is capable of listening!

LassWiADelicateAir · 07/10/2018 12:09

What I mean is, if you’re complaining about the style of feminism that dominates this space, why come here? I don’t go to liberal feminist groups etc and then complain they’re not more radical

But this part of the forum was not expressly created to be a Radical Feminist group.

An individual member of MN has every right by the rules of MN to promote liberal feminist if she wishes.

Bowlofbabelfish · 07/10/2018 12:09

You aren’t being shouted down. People are arguing against your point of view.

You’re supposed to argue back. Debate, being your facts and opinions to the table. If you do t have an internally consistent and logically/scientifically correct argument, you won’t get very far. I know it’s the current vogue just now to yell bigot or TRANSPHOBE and then think the argument is won, but back in the day, people used to debate. It got heated at times. They dealt with it.

The fact that men as a class are a danger to women as a class is a fact - it’s backed up by evidence. So are the following facts:

Single sex toilets are advised by every aid agency on earth as a way to reduce sexual assault
Men commit almost all violent crime
Men commit almost all sexual crime
Men as a class are larger, stronger than women as a class and are thus a physical danger.
Men as a class are faster, stronger and have different skeletal systems/higher VOmax etc and thus we have sex segregated sports
Humans are sexually dimorphism
Intersex people are not some kind of halfway house - they are Male or female, with various developmental issues both physical and biochemical.
Self ID will allow any man into all spaces, so all spaces will be unisex
Where spaces have become unisex there has been a big rise in sexual and voyeuristic crime. See point one.

So: which facts do you have to oppose this? Other than telling me to be nice? Because I’m done being nice. This shit is important.

VerbeenaBeeks · 07/10/2018 12:09

That is, you either accept the space and deal with the assertive challenging interactions you’ll find, or not. But just stop whinging about it. It’s a distraction from more important things.

There's nothing wrong with "assertive challenging interactions."
There's everything wrong with pile on personal attacks.

BrownPaperTeddy · 07/10/2018 12:10

What? The OP of the hide the thread thread agreed with you! What article?

A different thread started yesterday.

Op linked to a news article and used it as total proof that the world has gone mad and that TRAs have finally taken over.

Quite a lot of FWR posters proclaimed their outrage.

Except that it was a clearly fake, made up news article. As many of us pointed out. We also pointed out the distinct lack of critical thinking skills exhibited by those quick to jump on the bandwagon.

Post got deleted. Why? Should have been left to provide an example of people willing to believe anything as long as it supports their POV

OunceOfFlounce · 07/10/2018 12:11

No ones suggesting you leave because of your views but because you don't seem to like being challenged as robustly as happens here. You complain of people shouting you down - that's just debate.

TeddyIsaHe · 07/10/2018 12:11

It’s not derailment, it’s literally what the thread is about! So you had the option to not come on here and crack on with your important stuff to do.

You’re right I don’t have to come here, but if you rtft you’ll see why I have done in the past, and why it was an important find for me. To be continually told that I’m not welcome is just ridiculous really.

SuburbanRhonda · 07/10/2018 12:12

What's not OK is personal attacks though of which there's a lot if you post in favour of the man's point of view on MN.

Do report those posts when you see them. MNHQ delete personal attacks, unlike Twitter.

TeddyIsaHe · 07/10/2018 12:12

I love a good debate. When people are telling me I’m a man/handmaiden/a fucking libfem and not actually debating is where I have the issue.

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