AIBU to be bloody angry that so few famous pp who have a voice are talking about this?

[Destinysdaughter]

So in the last week both Alison Moyer and Glinner have basically been forced to leave Twitter because of the amount of abuse they’ve received for their views.

Most of the GC activism is coming from ordinary ( brilliant) women, often at great personal cost to themselves.

So my question is why aren’t famous pp, and women, who are usually really outspoken, talking about this? Jo Brand, Janet Street Porter, Shappi Korsandi, any of the female comedians? Helen Mirren, Olivia Coleman, Judi Dench, female DJs, literally ANYONE?? The silence is deafening. The only people ( women) who have brought this to people’s attention have been ordinary women, like ManFriday, Lisa Muggeridge, Posie Parker, Jean Hatchet etc

And a few female journalists. And as for female POLITICIANS most have been worse than useless

Is it because the women with voices are in such a position of power that any changes to the law won’t affect them? Or that they do understand the issues but don’t want to affect their careers? Or that they genuinely believe transvestites are women? ( erroneously thinking that they are men who’ve had their bits removed)

Following all these debates online I
find myself becoming more angry every day and I also see more women getting radicalised every day. But most of the women in power won’t talk about it. Why??

There is nothing to be actually scared of.

TRA have beaten up one woman. The rest is threats. They lie, lie, lie and people believe the liars will carry out the threats.

This is about love of money and status and not wanting to lose either.

I mean, worrying about rich celebrities receiving a few angry tweets is kind of lame when you think of what actual abuse looks like

But it’s not “a few angry tweets”. It’s threats of rape, murder and threats to their families.

India knight has been liking and retweeting gender critical tweets- she seems to be in a twitter gang with Caitlin Moran and Sali Hughes although sali and the pool lot are very pro trans so not sure if it will influence them at all

There has only been one incident of threats being carried out, one too many.

They are liars, they lie about everything.

Perhaps a lot of them do genuinely disagree with us on this? I find it incredible that with everything we now know about Brexit that people can still support it but plenty do - they are looking at the same news as me (presumably) and seeing it very differently even though to me it could not be clearer.

The TRAs are very persuasive and trans people can be vulnerable and do need support like other minorities. I think most of us came from a position of wanting to be kind and accepting and it was only when I started reading about the consequences on MN and then took a look at the way the TRAs behave that I became GC. 2 years ago I would have happily said TWAW and if I wasn't on MN I doubt I'd have been exposed to any of this. I really think the work you've been doing here though is turning the tide.

And as for Cathy fucking Newman, she can fuck right off. She is actively harming women by her stance. The way she chaired that gender debate was disgusting. It’s like some of these women actually hate women!

Tras have been brilliant at insisting on their vulnerability whilst simultaneously exaggerating the threat they pose to naysayers.

On the other hand, the movement does collect some strange and angry men. Angry men are dangerous. I have been cautious on this issue due to having small children and also working for a friend's small business. I can deal with consequences but I can't choose them for others.
However, words are just words I think once you have been called a bigot or an awful transphobe and survived is helps!

Heresy I often think a coming out day , a prearranged time for people to go public would be powerful. I think alot of us are reaching 'fuck it levels' and it would encourage people to be open.

I do think if this does down and the GC viewpoint is accepted as more mainstream we will see the silent politicians and feminists suddenly declare themselves as GC all along!

Shappi Korsandi liked some Trans nonsense about being so oppressed the other day I’m sorry to say.

I’m out as GC at work but it’s my business so I can be. I’m also GC at a charity I work with - it was fine. People respect that I’m coming from a position of knowledge and they haven’t looked into it that much, so whilst they don’t just take the whole thing on my say so, there is scope for a me to utter a word or two of caution and scepticism.

Celebs and MPs only need to say a single sentence demonstrating mild concern for how this will impact women and urging a little caution but they haven’t ..,,

Oh yes, I came across a HCP who actually made me roar laughing afterwards who believes men can become actual women.

It was this encounter in real life that convinced me that TRA are narcissistic, she was wounded by the truth. She seemed to self identify as a nice kind person, as a HCP, as a parent, demanded to know what group I represent (I was in my everyday clothes using a newspaper aid). I get the impression the TRA are tribal types with identity issues themselves. I don't identity as a European or as British, I have no sports teams, I am simply me.

She freaked out at my challenge, she couldn't cope with the cognitive dissonance of her not being seen by me as a nice person (I raised my eyebrows and said come on?) of a patient with dementia who had in their care plan, female HCPs only and that self-ID means men don't need to make any changes hormonal or physical to be considered women. She made me laugh because she walked off like the illustration of the Emperor in the Emperor's new clothes, puffed up chest and nose in the air. The narc rage was strong when I showed her up, it was so funny.

If it wasn't so tragic for patients in her care I would still be laughing at her now.

TRA won't punch you, they are mostly middle-class professionals who want money and status, if they punch you on the street they've all that is valuable to them.

My name is out there locally, on the internet and has been for a very long time. I am out on the streets.

TRA are in my experience narcissistic mostly middle-class professionals who value money and status. They won't punch you because they will lose what they value by punching you.

Freedom feels good.

LizzieSiddal uh huh Women get those on social media all the time. Not one celebrity has been actually been harmed over this. Meanwhile, women in prison have... women are being denied the right to gather to discuss the law... plenty of GC women have been doxed... one punched. Yet again, working class women and outspoken feminists suffer, while rich celebrities who pretend to be feminist, do only what keeps them popular in liberal circles and nothing which would affect sales or likes.

Yup, and meanwhile Alison Moyet goes round and round in circles leaking goodwill as she goes.

Sandi Toksvig? An opinion on everything except this. Claire Balding? Too rich, too privileged, too nice to risk it.

Someone mentioned Kathy Burke. Yes I've wondered what she thinks. She's probably friends with James Dreyfus who signed the stonewall letter.
But I can't blame women who make a living entertaining people for not giving their opinion on divisive political issues. They risk alienating half their audience whichever way.
I'd got the impression Emma Watson had agreed that twaw. It's the professional campaigners on gender issues that are annoying most.
There are a few academics. Maybe slowly increasing but still very few. It must be v uncomfortable for those who are out. I admire their principles.
And Helen Joyce of the economist had been important giving the issue space.

Appreciate that this is a post about another thread and may be removed but take a look at the thread about smear tests in aibu and the consider again why famous women might want to distance themselves a bit.

I've seen that thread. I don't understand what point you're trying to make.
Please elucidate.

Honestly? I think that as celebrities get wealthier and older, they often get more socially conservative and less inclined to be outspoken. They live in nicer parts of town, go to a private gym and hospital, socialise with more conservative people. A big barrier to people engaging with this issue is that they have never seen or don’t know a transperson, so don’t perceive it as affecting them. I live in a socially conservative part of England and there is literally nothing about this issue locally.

Look at rock stars. They start off trashing hotel rooms, sticking two fingers up to the establishment and performing at concerts held on trespassed land. Roll forward 50 years they have a knighthood and a bloody great estate in the country with an electric fence around it.

Matthew Parris current thread.

OP Redkeyboard comment
"Interesting column. Also includes this paragraph:

"On the facts and the rationalities I’m with my brave Times colleague Janice Turner, whose journalism I much respect. I don’t think women can have penises; don’t think anybody in any field is free to categorise themselves without reference to how others would describe them; I do think women who want “women-only” places have a right for their fears to be heard; and I do think that, changing gender being so important a step and so hard to reverse, we should give deep thought to how fast and how early in life a person should do this."

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/prejudice-will-never-be-a-thing-of-the-past-qbft3z07f

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3386112-Mathew-Parris-Maybe-Treatment-of-Trans-People-is-Our-Generation-s-Blindspot

Someone mentioned Bridget Christie. Unfortunately I saw her do stand-up a couple of years ago and she made a throwaway comment disparaging gender-critical feminists. So I don't hold out much hope for her.

And I'd second the comment about David Davies: "Singlehandedly you have managed to help us maintain some faith in politicians."

You know how people like to speculate about how they'd have behaved under Nazism or Stalinism? Whether they'd have quietly gone along with it or spoken out? It's really interesting that, when push comes to shove, it's not the people you expect. David Davies MP is one of the last people I'd have expected to put his head above the parapet, but there he is, showing far more courage than so many of his more senior and supposedly more progressive colleagues in both the Tory and Labour parties. And the people you might have expected to be brave turn out to be cowards after all. To quote Owen Jones: history will judge them.

To quote Owen Jones: history will judge them.

And Owen Jones.

I’m so bloody angry right now, I feel like going out and spray painting in huge bloody letters, Women don’t have penises, all over the place!

It's very Dietland isn't it?

Emma Thompson is another one. OTOH she didn’t cover herself with glory when she supported Roman Polanski so maybe she has learnt a lesson and now stays quiet.

Also a lot of celebs live in a thespy, showbiz zone where stonewall et al are naturally prevalent. Show business has always been open - at a certain level - to different sexualities. And we know that Stonewall have been adept at eliding trans matters with gay rights. And many celebs are not particularly educated in critical thinking - that’s not what they are paid to do. So they know they work with lots of gay men, Stonewall supports gay men, Stonewall says TWAW, no further thinking required.

Unfortunately it has been deleted now.

I'm sure most women have some gender critical concerns. Mumsnet has become a quite important focal point for this and understandably so. Unfortunately for every reasonable well thought out argument or post there are other posters who post absolute nonsense. Some of it quite offensive. Some bonkers.

These posters derail important points and quite frankly detract from the validity of articulate posters. An unfortunate side effect of an anonymous forum I would imagine is that those with similar views get lumped together as 'those posters over on the feminist boards'. As an outsider looking in these threads can often appear as a mob with a mob mentality and the articulate intelligent posters rarely, if ever, challenge silly comments made by less thoughtful posters.

I wouldn't want to align myself with that publicly either is my point. I referenced the other thread as there were several mortifying examples of it.

Useful thread for anyone trying to understand better:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I don't think Germaine Greer has stayed silent?

Please don't forget Caroline Flint MP. She is the only Labour MP to stick her head above the parapet take the flack. My respect for her is immense.
Jess Phillips? She'll wait until the wind's blowing the right way before she does anything. She's no friend of women, despite the constant political grandstanding.
What pisses me off as well is the refusal of the BBC to cover this. Question Time, Any Questions? Not a murmer. And it can't be because they're not getting the questions asked.
The enormous upside for me in all oif this is that, for the first time in history, ordinary people can speak out on this. I do think that MN is making a difference. I sometimes worry about social media, but, if it wasn't for social media, this would all be pushed through.