Debbie Hayton letter Times 05.10.18

[PollyEthel]

Excellent letter in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b1cda4f4-c7f8-11e8-a4a5-a34bea2c1d04

TRANSGENDER DEBATE
Sir, The compilers of the Book of Proverbs probably had more pressing concerns than gender identity when they characterised the wicked, the foolish and the wise, but the transgender debate today (letters, Oct 3 & 4) involves the same three kinds of people. The wicked will hijack any agenda for their own self-interest, and trans rights provide rich pickings.

By playing the trans card, misogynists can hound women with impunity, paedophiles can find easier access to children and rapists can be transferred to women’s prisons. The foolish see what is happening but cross their fingers and hope for the best. They know the difference between male and female but they hope that by repeating the mantra “trans women are women” loudly enough it will render that difference insignificant.

The rest of society is now finding out what has been going on. Surely, they say, people can’t change their sex to circumvent the sex-based protections of women and girls? But if they can, some abusers will. Lucy Bannerman’s Thunderer was right (“Trans movement has been hijacked by bullies and trolls”, Oct 1). The time has come for our political leaders to show some wisdom before it is too late. 
Debbie Hayton
Transgender activist, Birmingham

Pubs aside, the mention of meetings is interesting though. Maybe someone should ask Debbie during Q&As at the next WPUK meeting they attend what they think should happen seeing as they're pretty good at dodging the subject with 'I want to help' waffle with no substance behind it online.

What should happen? People's interests need to be protected.

For example, female scholarships, all-women short lists and the like. I've said that these are closed to me because I've had the benefits of male socialisation. That is a debate I would like to see happen instead of the current assumption that all you have to do is assert a female gender identity and away you go because transwomen are women. Protecting interests would ensure that separate measures are put in place to support transwomen and transmen without affecting women or their representation.

Ok, so that’s a suggestion for scholarships, all-women shortlists and so on. What’s your suggestion for single sex spaces like toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges, hostel dorms, hospitals? Given the discussion about consent above?

I've had so many lightbulb moments on this board recently it's like Blackpool illuminations!

Awesome...and true in my case as well

Must stop reading threads backwards

Some great posts on here from a lot of posters

barracker

I find that transsexuals are very generous at allowing women to have space when they personally have no interest in the area.

TS have posted here saying that sport should be segregated when they don't participate themselves, think women should absolutely be able to ask for a female nurse, when they aren't nurses, think female scholarship are important when they have completed their own studies.
But the sporty TS want to be included in women sports, the TS nurse wants to perform intimate examinations and the student wants the scholarship.

Every single TS has their own line in the sand. It's as if the mentally go through their own lifestyle and 'allow' us to have anything they don't need.

It's never based on the needs and wants of women and girls, the reason these facilities and schemes were set up in the first place.

If we rolled back all the queer theory nonsense and looked at people with genuine gender incongruence, you know, the old school transsexuals, then I still think those represent a tiny amount of the population.

I have shared a loo with several transexual people and my personal opinion was that it was absolutely fine.

I think the trans umbrella bullshit stinks, as it encourages any Tom, Harry or Dick to push the boundaries.

I think we need better design. Personally I would compromise on this for genuine gender disphoric people. I know, I know I've just pissed loads of you off, but this is a messy shitty situation and we aren't the woke stasi, we can and do think differently.

There's not an invisible zapper that gets penises at the door. We'll always be unsafe in a multi story car park loos at night.

The trouble is we are not acting like the stasi are we. If you want to piss next to someone with a penis I am not stopping you, you can establish the boundaries that you want for you. With the above you have just set the boundaries for me and anyone who disagrees with you. You don't get to give consent for other people.

I think the idea that TS have been in all of our female spaces for years under an honour system has been exaggerated.

I can see that they may have used debenhams toilets unchallenged, but not open changing rooms or hostel accommodation. I don't think that happened because women would challenge it, and TS would have avoided situations where they would be outed.

There's not an invisible zapper, but we have eyes and we should have the ability to say no too.

I have also noticed this, zutt.

ZuttZeVootEeVro

That's an excellent observation. 'You can have what I don't need' seems to be a very prevalent attitude.

And yes, these women's spaces did not historically include changing rooms, gyms, prisons, rape refugees, all women shortlists, diversity quotas, accolades, sports and women's officer jobs.

I believe they rarely included toilets. I would occasionally see a transwoman browsing the women's clothing section. But that's it.

DebbieInBirmingham

I notice you deliberately did not refer or comment on single sex toilets, changing rooms etc

Please can you can tell us what you see as the solution in that area specifically.

I see. We can have our scholarships and shortlists, but not our privacy or dignity.

You're not Santa, Debbie, deciding what gifts the good girls can have out of your sack.

The 'gifts' were already ours, the sack is ours, we know exactly which Grinch stole them and we're claiming them back, and frankly, if I were that Grinch I'd get on my sleigh and fly the feck away as fast as possible because women are waking up to realise we've been sold a fairytale, and this one is not going to have a happy ending for everyone.

You're not Santa, Debbie, deciding what gifts the good girls can have out of your sack.

This.

I don't want to pile on, Debbie. I think you genuinely believe in your good intentions, but its very apparent you believe that it is your sack, and that you have more right to control the resources that women are allowed than women do. Which confirms; you see women as a separate group from you who are less human, with less rights, and that you somehow have the authority and entitlement to have what you want from them whether or not they agree. What is that authority based on?

Because there's the answer and why women at this point need to say a resounding, no . This is not about which men get which privileges to have access to women whether or not the women agree - this is fundamentally, do women have the right to rule themselves or are women still in 2018 the possessions of men. Who mostly will promise to be kindly in using them.

That's the extreme end of wrong.

KatVonGulag "Personally I would compromise on this for genuine gender dysphoric people. I know, I know I've just pissed loads of you off, but this is a messy shitty situation and we aren't the woke stasi, we can and do think differently. "

Except that your view requires females to budge up and shift over for so--called "sex dysphoric" men. My view is that we need to educate men about their "sex dysphoric" brothers and educate them to make space for them.

It is not for women and girls to solve the problems of these men, ever.

*Except that your view requires females to budge up and shift over for so--called "sex dysphoric" men. My view is that we need to educate men about their "sex dysphoric" brothers and educate them to make space for them.

It is not for women and girls to solve the problems of these men, ever.*

This

The 'gifts' were already ours, the sack is ours, we know exactly which Grinch stole them and we're claiming them back, and frankly, if I were that Grinch I'd get on my sleigh and fly the feck away as fast as possible because women are waking up to realise we've been sold a fairytale, and this one is not going to have a happy ending for everyone.

Indeed. It's that pattern, where transsexuals clearly see themselves as the reasonable party who will decide exactly which rights and spaces women should be allowed to retain and which we must give up, and look, the ones we must give up happen to the ones they personally want, that soured me on the idea that we should be cheerleading articles like the one this thread started to discuss.

Women can and should represent and speak for ourselves. Transsexuals cannot and should not represent us and speak for us, or claim to. Who has access to women's spaces should be decided by women, not by different groups of men arguing about what they personally think they need from us versus what they don't need so it's OK for us to have it.

Debbie's contributions to this thread have been enlightening, and not in a good way.

BTW, I totally disagree with Kat and think that for all sorts of reasons "no males in women's spaces" is where the line needs to be drawn, but notice how we can have this disagreement without sending each other threats, contacting employers telling them to sack the person we disagree with, etc? Female socialization - it makes a huge difference, and it's vital to remember that transwomen didn't experience it and that has a huge impact on how they relate to us and how they see the process of reaching a decision on what to do about all of this.

It's a great letter and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

Debbie is a great advocate for transsexuals & it's good to see more of them standing up and having their own voice against the transactivist agenda. This is something that seems to have grown just over the last few months, largely due to people like Debbie leading the way.

I never really expected to agree with TS and have never considered them allies as such, although we have a few shared aims and lots are lovely as individuals. The TSRaincrew shitshow didn't surprise me, neither did the more recent effort to form a collective voice. It doesn't surprise me when people like Debbie or Sevenhex show their male socialisation and trample all over women's boundaries without noticing.

TS will fight for their interests just as we will fight for ours.

Nevertheless it's possible to form a political alliance (as opposed to being 'allies') and support each others' voices where we agree, while tabling our differences. Not everybody will think this is a good idea, just as not everybody thinks hands across the aisle is a good idea. That's fine. It's never caused a problem that some of us support HATA and some of us don't.

This sort of alliance only works as long as we are completely upfront and honest about what our differences are.

So being upfront and honest, I agree with Barracker. I don't want any male people in female only spaces. I didn't give a shit in my teens and twenties but I have a daughter now and an ageing mother and I won't have this for them. I don't consent and neither do they. None of us were ever asked.

I am happy to table this major disagreement with TS, as long as it is acknowledged, for the purpose of fighting the immediate threat of the gra reform. It's in all of our interests to support each others' messages where we agree during this consultation and any resulting parliamentary debate.

Great post pencils completely agree.

I'm interested to see how many transsexuals will still be willing to work together with women now that it's becoming clear that doing so is not going to result in their being granted special "other males not allowed in women's spaces but you're OK" status in a quid pro quo sort of arrangement, which I'm getting the impression is part of what Debbie was hoping for.

Would you say the women at the meetings Debbie attends generally agree with that or are they more inclusive in terms of people like them? (Is 'them' the right term in that context? )

Well said Pencils

Angry I agree, I can completely see why Debbie and others in this situation are suffering that women have been forced from a position of not entirely consenting tolerance of the very few TS users of women's facilities, to women reaching a point of no, the line has to be a hard one of no males. They are losing what they had because of TG male born people exploiting, demanding, demonstrating how very unsafe and unrespectful they are and intend to be, and making it clear if any male has access it will be used for all men to have access and say a vigorous 'fuck you' to women in the process.

Had the TG political lobby not pushed it this far, women might not have been comfortable or wholly happy about it, but most of us here would never have reached the point we're at now of unpacking it, calling it clearly for what it is and asserting boundaries.

That ought to read: Had the TG political lobby not pushed it this far and a particularly cowardly government allowed them to

They are equally culpable for this situation having reached the point it has.

Indeed, and I think many people (including Debbie in fact) saw this coming. I suppose my current sour attitude is related to the fact that many transsexuals have presented themselves as being in favor of preserving women's rights when in fact it's looking very much like the motivation may have been more an attempt to head off the process that we've seen unfolding in this thread. Not that that's a surprise so much as that the "I'm on women's side" part of it irks me. Advocate for yourself if you like, everyone is entitled to do that, but be honest about it.