Debbie Hayton letter Times 05.10.18

[PollyEthel]

Excellent letter in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b1cda4f4-c7f8-11e8-a4a5-a34bea2c1d04

TRANSGENDER DEBATE
Sir, The compilers of the Book of Proverbs probably had more pressing concerns than gender identity when they characterised the wicked, the foolish and the wise, but the transgender debate today (letters, Oct 3 & 4) involves the same three kinds of people. The wicked will hijack any agenda for their own self-interest, and trans rights provide rich pickings.

By playing the trans card, misogynists can hound women with impunity, paedophiles can find easier access to children and rapists can be transferred to women’s prisons. The foolish see what is happening but cross their fingers and hope for the best. They know the difference between male and female but they hope that by repeating the mantra “trans women are women” loudly enough it will render that difference insignificant.

The rest of society is now finding out what has been going on. Surely, they say, people can’t change their sex to circumvent the sex-based protections of women and girls? But if they can, some abusers will. Lucy Bannerman’s Thunderer was right (“Trans movement has been hijacked by bullies and trolls”, Oct 1). The time has come for our political leaders to show some wisdom before it is too late. 
Debbie Hayton
Transgender activist, Birmingham

Debbie, up to a year ago I would have welcomed you. I appreciate all you have done.

The people who bullied the UK population on your behalf are responsible for me now agreeing with Barracker.

No male is now welcome because of the TRA bullying and it is TRA not women you should take this up with.

Another one who thinks the dividing line has to be sex because we have seen what happens when boundaries are blurred. The push for further blurring never ends.

However, all condemnations of aggressive activism and the creation of safeguarding loopholes allowing easier abuser infiltration are to be welcomed, I feel.

. The time has come for our political leaders to show some wisdom before it is too late.

This time came over a year ago. I hold the political elite entirely responsible for this shit show. It is way past the point the adults should’ve stepped in to tell the lunatics to sit down, shut up and stop damaging children, women and transsexuals.

Debbie, I suggest you ask Owen Jones, Angela Raynor, Wes Streeting, Jeremy Corbyn, Caroline Lucas, Vince Cable, Maria Miller and their ilk help you fight for trans spaces and services. They after all are why you are no longer welcome in women's as they are no longer welcome to my vote!

Angela Raynor MP representing the Labour party.

Rest assured I will NEVER forget you joining that Labour FB group, you were aggressive in harming your sex class, you are incompetent and harmful in your role as shadow Minister.

I will spend the rest of your career reminding the public of your behalf.

No male is now welcome because of the TRA bullying and it is TRA not women you should take this up with.

Debbie's letter is taking it up with politicians, which is entirely appropriate.

By the way, I find that knowing an individual's prior male name clarifies the mind sharply about exactly who is demanding that they be treated as the lovely, gentle, special exception and not be excluded from places where naked females and young girls may be.

I can't use that name on this forum, so I won't. But it helps that I know it, because when I use it mentally it makes me very, very angry.

I'll have to go hypothetical here for mumsnet rules.

If hypothetical Phil changes his name to Emily, it doesn't actually change who Phil is. But it does change the perception of women about 'Emily' and if 'she' should be excluded. Women who would slam the door in Phil's face and keep him well away from where their daughters get undressed, are suddenly thanking Emily for her allyship and telling each other that Emily is a special exception.

The power of a female name. Same man. Different name.

The male person Phil still exists, is still male and is still helping himself to every private female space he fancies, knowing that he cares fuck all about the boundaries of the women and girls in there. Because he's a man. Maybe he'll 'debate' with the women. But he's coming in regardless. And he knows full well he's a member of the opposite sex.

*Angela Raynor MP representing the Labour party.

Rest assured I will NEVER forget you joining that Labour FB group, you were aggressive in harming your sex class, you are incompetent and harmful in your role as shadow Minister.

I will spend the rest of your career reminding the public of your behalf.*

I shall join you in that.

Barracker I feel I’m out of my depth here, you clearly know more than me. You are a poster I’ve always appreciated though. Thank you for everything you’ve ever written on these boards.

Barracker I agree with you. this whole situation is beyond depressing-why was the GRC ever allowed for individuals who have male genitalia. Why aren't TW legally recognised as TW? Third spaces are the only option imho.

The TRAs are hurting women and they are hurting transsexuals like Debbie. We may not always come from the same angle, but it is really important that voices from all sides speak out.

I'm not sure what the long term solutions are now - we know that this has damaged the "honour" code which meant women would tacitly accept certain transsexuals, secure in the knowledge that we could refuse entry to the club or kick anyone out. It was, perhaps, a fudge, but it was a kind and decent one. Also, frankly, the number of people with genuine dysphoria is so small that it was rarely an issue. It's also impossible to legislate as, in the end, we either go back to biology or get rid of single sex spaces altogether.

I know that many here are now firmly on the biology side and I understand that. I still hope we can find a way back but I know it will be hard as this genie is out of the bottle. I certainly have no wish, however, to make anyone's life needlessly difficult.

This movement benefits no-one except some very aggressive, entitled men with fetishes. I'm saving my anger for them.

Thank you, Debbie.

Debbie is a staunch ally to us in this fight and I appreciate everything he has done. It is a cause of real anguish to me that Debbie will inevitably have to be excluded from female spaces in order for us all to be safe from perverts and predators because we will have no other choice.

It shows real strength of character to write to the Times and post about it on here after the drubbing received on here previously.

THANK YOU DEBBIE

100% with you, Barracker. Thank you for your resolve in the face of pressure to ‘be nice’ coming from our own.

Women are women

Transwomen are transwomen

Ladybirds are ladybirds

Birds are birds

I will also point out that Debbie has been clear that it would be stupid not to keep taking these opportunities offered to be published and quoted by others. This is entirely self-serving and has absolutely nothing to do with sticking one’s neck out for women and their rights.

When I see a GC woman being given such a platform repeatedly I’ll feel better. In the meantime, ultimately all of Debbie’s contributions are still a man debating which rights women should be entitled to have, continuing to feed into the idea that angry/disobedient women are unfit to be consulted on their rights directly.

Women’s rights are not a compromise to be reached and that Debbie continues to represent the view that they are should really be obvious.

100% with Barracker.

I actually disagree with Barracker here, simply because I personally have no issue whatever with sharing spaces with post-op trans women. I don't care if they have a GRC or not, GRC was only ever a fudge cos the government wasn't brave enough to allow same-sex marriage.

The problem I have is - how do I know? How can I tell?

So yeah, 3rd spaces for me too, whilst retaining male and female for those who can't share. I would use the 3rd space alongside my trans friends.

In the meantime I find the hostility to someone who is basically on our side baffling. Why can't we work together to protest self-id? We can iron out the housekeeping once the wolf is no longer at the door.....

GRC was only ever a fudge cos the government wasn't brave enough to allow same-sex marriage.

And that is why it needs repealing. It is a homophobic law from a homophobic time that is now being abused to increase homophobia once again.

Debbie is 'on our side' in some respects (dangers of self ID, being allowed to debate the issue, knowing TW are irrevocably male) but not others. Debbie is perfectly clear about being a transgender rights activist not a women's rights activist per se ... as a TW who doesn't claim to be a woman, that is fine.

But Debbie is prepared to debate. Debbie listens. She may not agree, she may want to put an opposing view on some matters but there is scope to negotiate with her and others like her.

There are things I disagree with her about, of course there are. But I would rather have the time and space to engage in respectful discussion about them AFTER I am assured that laws that put both me and her in danger have not been rushed through under the radar

I'm instinctively with Barracker. But there is also part of me that agrees we can sort out the details later. I fear that if we go for everything now we may lose whereas if we stop self ID in its tracks then address other issues it might be more winnable.

And there IS merit in what Kristina, Debbie et al are doing. There IS merit in being able to say to people that even some trans identified people disagree with the LGBT lobbies.

Less than 1 in 13000 people have a GRC.

We can iron out the housekeeping once the wolf is no longer at the door.....

As soon as the wolf of self-ID is no longer at the door in this case, you’ve got another wolf as soon as you show any sign of saying ‘no’ to him too and you’ve already welcomed him inside.

Besides which... Debbie is a self-IDing transwoman. Not sure what basis you are using to make an exception.

TRA are harvesting data, DO NOT CLICK links on the thread below

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3381154-Posie-Parker-Doxed-Over-Night?msgid=81550237#81550237

It's a great letter.
And I agree with everything in it and I'm glad Debbie is saying it.
Even if I disagree with Debbie on transexuals in women's spaces.
I'd probably have been ok with that, but now, how could we tell? So it's not workable.