Debbie Hayton letter Times 05.10.18

[PollyEthel]

Excellent letter in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b1cda4f4-c7f8-11e8-a4a5-a34bea2c1d04

TRANSGENDER DEBATE
Sir, The compilers of the Book of Proverbs probably had more pressing concerns than gender identity when they characterised the wicked, the foolish and the wise, but the transgender debate today (letters, Oct 3 & 4) involves the same three kinds of people. The wicked will hijack any agenda for their own self-interest, and trans rights provide rich pickings.

By playing the trans card, misogynists can hound women with impunity, paedophiles can find easier access to children and rapists can be transferred to women’s prisons. The foolish see what is happening but cross their fingers and hope for the best. They know the difference between male and female but they hope that by repeating the mantra “trans women are women” loudly enough it will render that difference insignificant.

The rest of society is now finding out what has been going on. Surely, they say, people can’t change their sex to circumvent the sex-based protections of women and girls? But if they can, some abusers will. Lucy Bannerman’s Thunderer was right (“Trans movement has been hijacked by bullies and trolls”, Oct 1). The time has come for our political leaders to show some wisdom before it is too late. 
Debbie Hayton
Transgender activist, Birmingham

I remain glad that Debbie writes as a transgender activist in places like The Times - really the politicians need to snap out of their foolishness and be wise.

But this seems an appropriate place to copy the marching chant which spontaneously evolved on another thread

• No males, no lies Women, do not compromise!

I’d’ve gone with

No males, no lies
FUCK OFF with your compromise.

But I’m quite arsey, I possibly wasn’t socialised correctly.

Evolve it further to suit your purpose and mood.

Thanks for the comments. :-) There are too many to respond individually but I would like to make four points in response.

1. I don't mind criticism and I understand the arguments that Barracker and others are making. I'm not in a position now to debate them now though and, to be honest, massaging on a thread isn't a great way to debate. An evening in the pub is much better.

1. Yes, I styled myself as a transgender activist. I am transgender and I am an activist. I seek solutions that work for both trans people and women.

1. Self-ID. Yes I do. I could get a GRC any time I want it - I qualify for one - but it would change nothing apart from the sex marker on my birth certificate. Something that rarely sees the light of day. I would still use female spaces by invitation and consent, and I would still not take up places in society reserved for women.

1. I've had more threats of violence today. It's unpleasant but I suspect people like Jess Phillips get it much worse.

Best wishes to all
Debbie

I would still use female spaces by invitation and consent

What invitation and consent, and which spaces? If you are using random women's spaces such as toilets and changing rooms there has been no invitation or consent given.

(Invitations given by one woman do not mean that all women and girls have consented.)

Yes that does seem disingenuous.

Either

1. you haven't got any consent or invite and are telling fibs.
2. you have a very unusual contractural concept of 'group consent' which is not consensus, but more akin to male entitlement (eg- she said yes once that means always, if she said yes, so should you, etc), or
3. it just doesn't occur to you that a lack of protest may not mean invitation or consent (male entitlement again).

It would be impossible to get actual consent in all cases.

Sorry to hear about the threats of violence, Debbie. Whatever disagreements there may be on this thread, I'm sure we all find them abhorrent.

Barracker The clarity, strength and common sense in your posts is wonderful. Please keep writing them.

Debbie I am a woman. I don’t know you, but please note that you do not have my consent to use female spaces.

Debbie, I hope you are being supported over the threats.

Don't take this personally. I don't want to share with you either. I am sorry that hurts, it hurts me to find unexpected males where they are unexpected, I hope you understand.

Debbie

I am utterly appalled that the government have allowed things to get this stage. The threats of violence are not acceptable and I hope you have RL support and police are taking them seriously.

Unfortunately the day has come, and I knew it was coming, when I have to say, no. No males, no lies, no fucking compromise. And I have to say no, even though I like you.

Every letter I send, despite being clear that I want children safeguarded and women’s spaces women only, I do also point out that transsexuals have been let down, very badly, by the failure to reign in the extreme activism.

Stonewall you’re culpable here and I’m disgusted.

Yes, I styled myself as a transgender activist. I am transgender and I am an activist. I seek solutions that work for both trans people and women.

What are those solutions? Given that women want and need sex segregation, what solutions are you suggesting?

I'm not sure what this concept of "invitation and consent" means, either, to be honest.

Women are socialised to swallow our discomfort and to go along to get along. How do you know the consent is meaningful, freely given etc, and how would you know if it was withdrawn? They're nice words, but what is the practical application?

I am sorry to hear that deranged types are threatening you, and hope you have lots of RL support.

Also a little fistbump to Barracker for her illuminating posts.

I understand the objections. It gives me no pleasure to refer back to a blog post I wrote two years ago when I predicted this shift in sentiment. Transsexuals have been sharing women's spaces since the 1950s (and maybe even before). Our position now is now weaker and not stronger. I am urging my fellow transgender activists to wake up to reality.

Excerpt from my post (November2016)
"Transwomen in particular may find that goodwill is replaced by suspicion should abusive men spot an opportunity to exploit women’s spaces and protections.

The real losers will not be those who are antagonistic to trans people, but trans people themselves. Protections may be weakened not strengthened if self-declaration replaces expert testimony, and gender identity replaces gender reassignment as a protected characteristic. We need to reflect on the reality of the society we live in before we rush into a world where facts are replaced by feelings and evidence is replaced by the ethereal."

debbiehayton.wordpress.com/2016/11/29/caution-urged-when-parliament-debates-changes-to-trans-rights/

If you understand the objections then why are you still in women's spaces? Why were you ever in those spaces, if you can see why women wouldn't be happy about it?

Transsexuals have been sharing women's spaces since the 1950s (and maybe even before).

I'm not sure it was with enthusiastic consent all of the time.

Also, we are not just talking about public toilets anymore, we are talking about hospital wards, prisons and children and teenagers sleeping arrangements.

It's not just the fact that the trans umbrella has increased, it's that safeguarding is seen as more important now than in the 1950s.

I am utterly appalled that the government have allowed things to get this stage. The threats of violence are not acceptable

This. There is a shocking abrogation of duty from politicians across the board.

I'm also with Baracker. Sorry Debbie, but if you're ever in a female, sex segregated space with me or my daughters, I'm afraid you're there without our invitation or consent. Or indeed Iif you're there with ANY woman who hasn't specifically & freely said 'Come in Debbie, you're welcome'.

& we shouldn't have to be the ones telling you this.

It would send out a very powerful message if you were campaigning for third spaces. I'd be shoulder to shoulder with you on that.

Yes, sadly the appeals to the lunatics to shut up before transsexuals lost the ‘right’ to female spaces as a goodwill gesture hasn’t worked. We’re now there, that goodwill has been lost.

Debbie you need to campaign for third spaces and I for one support you in that.

Debbie, I heard you speak at WPUK meeting Birmingham.

I enjoyed your play with the TWAW mantra. I appreciated your stance on biology and the statement that you are not a women but identify with women.

You also spoke about how damaging the widening umbrella of trans was to people with dysphoria.

You spoke of your fears ,that the threat to women would cause women who previously welcomed you to now reject you, as they are forced into protection of thier spaces.

Looks like we arrived, doesn't it?

So what now? You seem to understand the dangers and recognise the fears as realistic.

In this case standing with women is to respect thier boundaries.

Are you able to prioritise safety for women above the wishes of DH?

We’re now there, that goodwill has been lost.

Debbie you need to campaign for third spaces and I for one support you in that.

Don't take the disabled spaces either, you need to sort your own.

Debbie, I condemn any threats against you.
My objections to you using female spaces in no way means I condone threats, and I suspect you know that.

Regarding your response, well, others have already answered beautifully that of course you don't have consent, unless you know and have gained it from every woman present. And a child can't consent to an adult in any case.

I'm sorry to keep repeating this, but I'm not going to debate my personal boundaries with you, or those of my miniBarracker.
You and I both know we are the opposite sex. If you respect us you will respect our right to privacy within our own sex. That isn't a plea to you, or an invitation to debate, that you'd prefer to save for over a drink in the pub. It's a demand and it's a hard line you must not cross.

I'm female. There will be times when I invoke my right to be in an exclusively female environment. Respect that.

Don't take the disabled spaces either, you need to sort your own.

Additional multifunctional unisex facilities, where logistically possible, would be a win-win helping many groups (parents with opposite sex children, for instance).

I think it needs to be said again that not wanting to be a man doesn't make a man a woman. Neither does amputating bodyparts or messing around with your endocrine system or getting artificial bodyparts added.

A woman is an actual identifiable, distinct, coherent form of human. A woman really is complete and whole, an entity in her own right - not a kind of man minus a penis.

It is sexist for men to think they can become women or even anything approximately like a woman.

It is sexist to put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la" when women inform you they don't want any males in single sex spaces.

I feel uncomfortably forced out of my female socialisation to be so confrontational about it. But I would always have felt uncomfortable and angry with males in female spaces but I would never have voiced it.

I get the feeling debbie that you think I would have been fine all along if it wasn't for the TRAs messing things up - as though I am swept along by popular opinion - which again feels belittling and, well, sexist.

My opinion does matter. As does my lack of consent.

I don't consent, Debbie