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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton letter Times 05.10.18

229 replies

PollyEthel · 05/10/2018 08:57

Excellent letter in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b1cda4f4-c7f8-11e8-a4a5-a34bea2c1d04

TRANSGENDER DEBATE
Sir, The compilers of the Book of Proverbs probably had more pressing concerns than gender identity when they characterised the wicked, the foolish and the wise, but the transgender debate today (letters, Oct 3 & 4) involves the same three kinds of people. The wicked will hijack any agenda for their own self-interest, and trans rights provide rich pickings.

By playing the trans card, misogynists can hound women with impunity, paedophiles can find easier access to children and rapists can be transferred to women’s prisons. The foolish see what is happening but cross their fingers and hope for the best. They know the difference between male and female but they hope that by repeating the mantra “trans women are women” loudly enough it will render that difference insignificant.

The rest of society is now finding out what has been going on. Surely, they say, people can’t change their sex to circumvent the sex-based protections of women and girls? But if they can, some abusers will. Lucy Bannerman’s Thunderer was right (“Trans movement has been hijacked by bullies and trolls”, Oct 1). The time has come for our political leaders to show some wisdom before it is too late. 
Debbie Hayton
Transgender activist, Birmingham

OP posts:
Knicknackpaddyflak · 06/10/2018 16:35

The last women to consent has to hold the casting vote in this

That should be on a poster somewhere.

There are women who will never be able to consent. I'm still reeling at the comment quoted here today that a girl who says she cannot share space with a male bodied person due to her religion should be 'reminded of British values'.

She should also be reminded of her rights under the Equality Act, that no one characteristic is superior to others, and directed to a good lawyer, and I sincerely hope she sues the responsible party for very large sums indeed. But that this kind of appalling thing is now openly said as a good thing - if anyone was in any doubt, there's the flashing red sign that this has gone way too far.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 06/10/2018 16:36

Are there any cartoonists on FWR who can re make the cup of tea consent video demonstrating this?

Barracker · 06/10/2018 16:39

Sound the klaxon for SandyDrawsBadly

Barracker · 06/10/2018 16:45

@SandyDrawsBadly your superskills are requested!

PurpleCrowbar · 06/10/2018 17:20

No, a GRC wouldn't make a difference to me, Debbie. You'd still be male. That's now my non-negotiable line. It wasn't say 3 years ago - I'd have happily shared with you - but as you so presciently said, TRA behaviour has created a point where women are really having to think about this.

Say you & I & a bunch of other people, all of themwomen, played netball or chamber music or whatever together, & we went on tour as a team/band, & absolutely ALL the women on the team said 'oh Debbie can get changed with us - we all like & trust & are comfortable around Debbie, right? Everyone OK with that? Sure?'...

...then of course that's different. I imagine I'd be one of those who didn't personally object. But that's a private arrangement within a group of friends.

It's a hard no to men in public female only spaces from me. I don't care about your GRC status, your surgery or how lovely a person you are. This is where we are.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/10/2018 17:41

Purples scenario of a group who were all comfortable with each other could apply to any mixed group TBH.

PurpleCrowbar · 06/10/2018 17:56

Yes, exactly!

I was trying to think how anyone could justify thinking they had female consent to be in a female space.

It only works if a) it's a discrete space, with specific individuals using it on specific occasions so their unanimous consent can be secured & b) if we understand that the deciding factor is the consent givers knowing someone as a trusted individual - their surgery/GRC/feelz are all irrelevant.

LikeDust · 06/10/2018 19:12

I have been uncomfortable in comparable situations where the woke ladies who don't mind have applied peer pressure when I do mind. I had to be super assertive and risk looking uptight to object. So I am not really convinced that you can get a group of women who are all really happy and consenting. It's more likely that you'll get one stridant domineering person setting a tone which people either go along with or resist. What i've observed about human behaviour is that assertive, boundary setting women are the exception of a compliant and pleasing rule. Especially among younger women.

PurpleCrowbar · 06/10/2018 19:57

Also true.

So you'd have to add c) where everyone is genuinely concerned that everyone is comfortable, & no one feels like an asshole for saying 'weeeellll...sorry, but actually I do mind'.

So all in all, it's looking simplest to find the chap, however nice & well liked, somewhere else to get changed.

So no, on reflection I don't think a male can often, if ever, state confidently that he's invited & welcome in a female space

ErrolTheDragon · 06/10/2018 21:29

What i've observed about human behaviour is that assertive, boundary setting women are the exception of a compliant and pleasing rule. Especially among younger women.

It may be that some of us learn through being parents - being assertive on behalf of ones children (there have been a few references to daughters) and so perhaps acquiring more of a tendency to look out for the interests of the more vulnerable in general? Noticing and speaking up for the person who isn't happily saying 'yes'?

arranfan · 06/10/2018 21:40

Re: the notion of consent.

Too often, in people's minds, asking for consent is a social fiction, in line with certain legal fictions. On hearing that the answer is, "No" - all too often, the response is, "I asked you nicely". This reveals that it was always a social fiction that our consent would sway the matter but it allowed the person asking to keep up the fiction of respecting our boundaries.

Datun · 07/10/2018 00:23

Too often, in people's minds, asking for consent is a social fiction, in line with certain legal fictions. On hearing that the answer is, "No" - all too often, the response is, "I asked you nicely". This reveals that it was always a social fiction that our consent would sway the matter but it allowed the person asking to keep up the fiction of respecting our boundaries.

How true. And awful.

ShcfG · 07/10/2018 00:42

Having read the whole thread, I'm saying No, again, to any men in women's spaces and women's roles.

No. And not negotiable.

PositivelyPERF · 07/10/2018 10:08

This has been one of the most fantastic threads I’ve read on FWR. So many wonderful women clearly putting into words, why I don’t want men in women’s spaces.

Men decide who gets to say they’re a woman.
Women’s socialisation prevents them from speaking out.
Men control women’s spaces, safety and achievements.

It’s as simple as that.

WTFagain · 07/10/2018 10:12

I read DH’s letter in full appreciation of the sentiment and intent, and I see the logic of many posters here. While I personally would not mind sharing space with DH based on my assessment of attitude, and what looks like consistent efforts to fit in with ordinary (as opposed to pornified, instagrammed) women and their lives, it is clear that the conflict is profound between the GRA (and the legal fiction it allows for, whether based on gatekeeping or not) and the honour system that has presumably been in place for longer than any of us can remember.

The question we might want to put to the transwomen who have been accommodated by the honour system (very clearly distinguished in my mind from current-day trans activists) is whether it’s worked ok for them (not taking any internal factors into account, e.g. severe dysphoria, which I don’t think it’s productive to ask others to remedy). DH and Kristina Harrison say that it has. There are more who suggest the same. But any formal query would of course be gamed by bad faith actors in the trans activist camp, who never intended to ‘fit in’ in the first instance. Their agenda is a ‘gender revolution’ and clearly seeks to overthrow what is in place.

I am increasingly leaning towards abolishing the GRA. One of the key reasons for its existence, i.e. the right to marry, is now afforded same-sex couples (however they present) by another legal vehicle. Why is it needed at all? The changing room issue cannot reasonably be ‘policed’ by way of asking for documents, and the imposition on women by men who threaten legal action on the basis of having a GRC is clearly profoundly offensive, so what purpose does it serve? In regard of women’s shelters and prisons, the EA allows for exceptions based on specific services and instances, so why have a GRC in the mix, if it is a case-by-case matter anyway?

A legal fiction - it’s in the name, really - will cause conflict with physical reality. Why do it? Why not allow people who struggle with severe dysphoria the medical and otherwise organisational support they need - in the capacity of their birth sex - but leave the GRC out of the picture? If its only purpose is to serve as a certificate of womanhood for no other reasons than validation of feelings, it is a preposterous legal instrument. It’s not needed to marry, it’s not needed to change your docs (apparently, though I don’t know if it’s the same for your passport - but how often do you show that it daily life?) and it’s no use in daily life to gain access to restrooms etc., why have it at all?

I would personally trust the honour system more than any legal framework. It’s MEN who cause the violence, not women. Police them instead. Women are used to recognising danger, and protecting others from it. It’s a key part of our community. I think we can trust it to remain in place - particularly if we are not under direct threat from an obviously aggressive activist movement.

So my proposition is to abolish the GRA, and continue to go by the age-old, informal honour system. The law is pretty rubbish at protecting women in our intimate spaces, anyway. It has no business inserting any more challenges into women’s lives until it’s improved its solutions to existing problems with sex-based violence.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/10/2018 10:17

Since Debbie seems to be hitting the green eggs and ham stage (but what about if...), I'm going to turn the question around.

What would it take to convince you that you shouldn't enter women's spaces, Debbie? Since apparently many women saying so very clearly and directly has not been enough.

RepealtheGRA · 07/10/2018 11:17

What would it take to convince you that you shouldn't enter women's spaces, Debbie? Since apparently many women saying so very clearly and directly has not been enough.

I too would like this answered.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 07/10/2018 13:05

What would it take to convince you that you shouldn't enter women's spaces, Debbie? Since apparently many women saying so very clearly and directly has not been enough.

And how does this not reflect that you feel an entitlement to do so, even if women do not consent? That's a socialisation I recognised Sad Recognising it is what has put me to the personal point of no, there can be no compromise here.

MissHoolee · 07/10/2018 13:39

Quite surprised (actually not really) that Debbie hasn't come back on this. As I said, they're pretty good at saying 'I'm willing to debate' and 'I can help' but not so good at actually putting their cards on the table and saying what they think should happen.

seafret · 07/10/2018 15:49

Am not surprised either. Hayton will come back only on their terms. I was going to post yesterday about the faux matey 'joke' about the pub.

" I don't mind criticism and I understand the arguments that Barracker and others are making. I'm not in a position now to debate them now though and, to be honest, massaging on a thread isn't a great way to debate. An evening in the pub is much better."

Ho ho ho. Will debate when it suits them and at a 'place' of their choosing. I think Hayton believes they still have the upper hand from the years of the honour system and not needing to gain women's genuine consent, and has clearly said it is for women to stop them. We are the ones being put on the back foot to negotiate (no), debate (not about the definition of women) and struggle to have our voice heard.

Quite obviously debating online is essential for shining the sunlight on this issue, and also for any women with disabilities and caring responsibilities or stuck but have a computer.

But that is beside the point. It is only faux solidarity that Hayton offers.

This attitude when exposed, as well as the TRAs, is what does force women to rise and say a BIG FAT LOUD NO.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/10/2018 16:02

The pub comment pinged my manipulation radar loud and clear. Yes, let's only talk about this in a situation where everyone is drinking, and there's social pressure to play along, and it's all very matey and do you really want to be the person who spoils the atmosphere? Plus so much harder to defy your female socialization and say no to a male in person, sitting right next to them, with no other women who you know agree with you around to back you up, and they're giving you kicked puppy looks. Are you heartless, that you'd still say no? What about if they sniffle like they're about to cry?

Made me bristle like an angry cat, it did. I don't like people trying to manipulate me.

LikeDust · 07/10/2018 16:09

Yes. I remember a certain Brighton-based poster who kept imploring MNers to come down to her gender-bending utopia pub where we'd all be cool and groovy with men in the ladies, ladies in the men's etc.

Perhaps it would be more pertinent to have the conversation outside the toilets of a multi-story car park at midnight.

seafret · 07/10/2018 17:51

Yeah, it's like we have never, ever been subject to a man trying to use alcohol and peer pressure against us before.

They really must think we are really stupid.

But I realise now that so many men just have no idea how transparent they are and/ or have no idea how to change their script, or that they have a script. (some are) Dumb and/or dumb and malicious.

What a waste of human potential.

BiologyMatters · 07/10/2018 18:58

Yes, let's only talk about this in a situation where everyone is drinking, and there's social pressure to play along, and it's all very matey and do you really want to be the person who spoils the atmosphere?

I've had so many lightbulb moments on this board recently it's like Blackpool illuminations!

RepealtheGRA · 07/10/2018 19:28

LikeDust Oh yes! I remember that one.

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