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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Child in my class is trans

298 replies

theresheis · 04/10/2018 20:39

Looking for some advice. I'm a long time lurker and whilst I have read lots of the posts surrounding the issues of trans rights and consider myself firmly in the gender critical camp I am not fully up to speed with the current legal situation surrounding the trans debate.

I am a primary school teacher and I teach eight-year-olds. I have a boy in my class who at home is going by a girl's name, using female pronouns and wearing girl's clothes. This has not happened at all in school and he has not spoken to his peers about this. His mum spoke to me recently and said she had taken him to the GP. She is supporting him but seems to be not overly pushing it. She is a single mum and she is somebody who I would describe as vulnerable.

His mum now has another GP appointment next week without the boy. I am wondering whether the GP is likely to signpost a charity which will advocate a transition?

I would like to know where I stand as his class teacher if it comes to it am I required to call him she/her etc?

I would say that none of the staff in the school would be aware that all of these issues and broadly would support his transition.

I have told the head that I am not prepared to tell the rest of the class that he has become a girl or ever was a girl. He looked pretty shocked and said he would go away and research this issue. Where could I suggest he looks?

Sorry quite a long post! Hope I've posted in relevant section.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 06/10/2018 10:59

If I read a document that appeared to be one-sided and had an agenda, I would seek out similar publications which offered alternative perspectives. I would loook further into the context and background and then reflect and critically analyse.

R0wantrees · 06/10/2018 11:03

James Kirkup, this week's lead Spectator article:
'Trans rights have gone wrong
The new gender orthodoxy allows no room for dissent'
(extract)
"Your 13-year-old daughter tells a teacher that’s she’s uncomfortable with her body. She prefers trousers to skirts, football to ballet. She says she thinks she’s a he and wants to be treated as a boy at school. Would the teacher tell you your daughter wants to change gender?

Your 11-year-old granddaughter comes home from school upset. Changing after gym, another girl stood watching her undress and playing with her penis. (The girl in question is transgender, so yes, she has a penis.) When your family complains to the school, what happens?

In the first case, no, the teacher wouldn’t tell you. ‘All people, including children and young people, have a right to privacy… Staff should not disclose information that may reveal a pupil’s trans status to others, including parents.’ In the second, it’s not the girl with a penis who has a problem, it’s the girl without one. She and her parents have wrongly assumed the child with the penis is ‘not a real girl’. That error should be ‘challenged through training and awareness raising’ so your granddaughter is comfortable with her classmate.

These cases are real. So are the responses, which come from the Allsorts Trans Inclusion Schools Toolkit, guidelines for school staff developed with Brighton and Hove City Council and used, in different forms, by several dozen councils in England and Wales. It is unsurprising that schools want guidance on how to deal with children describing themselves as transgender, since more and more seem to be doing so.

Why? Is it about tolerance: as society becomes more understanding, more trans people feel able to ‘come out’? Could the internet be accelerating ‘social contagion’, where the idea of being transgender spreads rapidly?

What explains the disproportionate number of girls (child ‘assigned female at birth’, to use the approved term) who are starting a journey that can lead to hormone treatment, then binding and ultimately removing their breasts? Is it possible that this is simply part of a wider crisis of mental health among girls?

I don’t know, and neither do the doctors and scientists who study this issue. If you talk to the clinicians at the Tavistock Clinic in London, the NHS centre for the treatment of gender-variant children, they’ll tell you that all the factors I mentioned may be at work, but the evidence base is still incomplete, that they need more time and data before offering explanations. (They’ll also tell you that quite a lot of the children referred to them as ‘transgender’ will in time ‘desist’ and decide to live in their original gender.)

The government now intends to commission research into all this. You might think that sounds sensible and mundane. You would be wrong.

According to Tara Hewitt, founder of the Trans Equality Legal Initiative (TELI), prominent campaigner for transgender rights and an adviser to numerous public bodies including the NHS, the proposed research is ‘absurd and offensive’. The project should be ‘dropped in the bin — it’s simply not an inquiry that needs to happen,’ Hewitt reckons.

This is the quintessential trans-rights response to scrutiny: even looking for facts about children’s welfare is transphobic. Just accept that trans girls are girls and trans women are women. End of debate." (continues)
www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/trans-rights-have-gone-wrong/

chicken2015 · 06/10/2018 11:07

View/read... i would obviously read it

R0wantrees · 06/10/2018 11:14

This trangender tread resource pack is not an offical document, it is criticised by a lot of offical bodies, im a teacher i have read parts, it is clearly made with an agenda and should not be viewed by teachers who are looking gor a balanced view.

If i viewed a document that was very one sided and had a clear agenda i probably dismiss on bias and not guidence i would be looking for.

View/read... i would obviously read it

You've said you read parts and dismissed it.

chicken2015 · 06/10/2018 11:14

I reported this thread last night to mumsnet , with my concern of using a bias document to advice a teacher on a very sensitive subject, i explained if i came on and expressed my concerns it would be like a bear pit, the fact ive had my spelling and grammar picked on is proof to me. Its clearly an echo chamber and anyone who disagrees is jumped on , so noone with different view can feel comfortable, so im leaving u to ur echo chamber and teachers can come and find that out for themselves.

MipMipMip · 06/10/2018 11:23

Thank you for sharing that document Spanula, it's very interesting.

A couple of key things: it says that a child who is questioning their gender/presenting otherwise than their sex should not be treated "less favourably ".

It does not at any point say if a child should be treated as the gender they would (currently, important to note given detrasitioning rate) like to be.

The example of treating a child less favourably is embarrassing them. Nothing to do with treating them as the gender they are presenting as.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 06/10/2018 11:23

I'm sorry you feel you've been picked on chicken2015

it's probably worth pointing out that there are sometimes posters here who aren't in good faith, so potential contradictions (like claiming to be a teacher and having poor spelling and grammar) can raise a Hmm response

I would say that you have not expressed your concerns ij any focused way, and indeed when asked to outline specific areas of concern you appear to be unable to do so

why is that?

SuburbanRhonda · 06/10/2018 11:24

chicken

There are loads of teachers and school staff on here who are concerned about factually wrong documents being recommended to schools with no critical analysis carried out.

But anyway, bye.

Keeptrudging · 06/10/2018 11:26

I'm not getting your point? There are lots of documents referenced on this thread, from different viewpoints. I didn't feel the need to report posts referencing publications which I might see as 'biased', because then I would be trying to shut down debate. Why would you want to stop debate? I think this thread has been remarkably civilised (until the grammar nitpicking at the end).

The OP is a real issue, looking for real solutions. I posted as a teacher, not based on publications, but based on how I would treat any pupil who was having a tough time.

Micke · 06/10/2018 11:28

your plan to misgender this child is likely to increase her propensity for suicidal ideation

What an appalling piece of scaremongering mis-information this is. Propensity for suicidal ideation comes from being depressed and suicidal, not conjured from thin air because someone uses the wrong pronouns when speaking to someone else about you. What a terrible minimising of the seriousness of mental illness that is!

it is unlawful for schools to treat pupils less favourably on grounds of gender reassignment.

How, is treating a boy according to their sex treating them less favourably? They are being treated in exactly the same manner as all the other children, given equal access to the same facilities as other children (before children with additional needs are brought into this - giving a boy access to the girls toilets is not equivalent to ensuring level access for a child in a wheelchair for example!)

LangCleg · 06/10/2018 11:54

Let's try again...

What are your specific points of contention in the Transgender Trend guidance, chicken2015? Please enumerate them and we can then discuss whether or not they are detrimental.

I have specific points of contention with the ideologically opposed Allsorts pack. To whit: it allows for confidential disclosures, encourages parental alientation, undermines PR and negates the checks and balances of multi agency working. These things are all against the statutory guidance contained in Working Together and create significant safeguarding gaps in the protection of gender-questioning children. Do you agree with me on this? Or do you think safeguarding should be relaxed for this vulnerable group?

Do you see how it works, good SPaG or bad SPaG? I have detailed and specific objections to some of the Allsorts guidance. I am asking you to respond with why I am wrong about this. I would like you to provide me with similar detail on your objections to the TT pack so that I can equally respond to them.

Since you appear to have no substantive points to make or responses to give, I cannot conclude you are in good faith.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2018 11:57

An argument should be strong enough to stand alone without the need for personal attacks if we are critically thinking.

Pieceofpurplesky · 06/10/2018 12:10

As a teacher there are many times you have to put aside personal beliefs for the sake of the children I teach.
In 20 years there have been many things I have not agreed with from parents and pupils. However my job is to educate and not judge.
I teach three transgender pupils (all f to m) I treat them exactly the same as before with different pronouns. Just as I taught the child of a prominent BNP member who followed their father's thoughts to the letter. And the Jehovah child who talked about medical
Intervention being wrong.

When you become a teacher the child becomes your priority not your personal beliefs.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2018 12:15

As a teacher there are many times you have to put aside personal beliefs for the sake of the children I teach.

What if you believe in safeguarding?

Are there no safeguarding issues here?

Really?

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2018 12:17

I thought the point was that as a teacher you didn't get to choose safeguarding. You have to be aware of where safeguarding issues for all pupils might arise. Not simply take what you are told at face value whilst smiling and nodding.

Pieceofpurplesky · 06/10/2018 12:18

Of course I believe in safeguarding children and if the child was in danger then i would deal with it. However trans children are already on the safeguarding register and have lots of in school support. Again my job is to protect the child from bullying and educate them. We also have boy/girl toilets and changing rooms and accessible ones that are neutral and available

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2018 12:20

And what about protecting the other kids from the harms of reinforcing gender stereotypes?

Or biding.

Or sterilisation.

Or the possibility of desistance that Mermaids deny exists.

Pieceofpurplesky · 06/10/2018 12:20

Incidentally I also see this as a trend and feel some children are encouraged from home - so being inclusive and supportive is the only way - so the child knows you are there if they need to talk

Pieceofpurplesky · 06/10/2018 12:22

Most of the other kids have no issue with it by the way. They are much more accepting of things. There are some who can be nasty. They are dealt with the same way as if they were nasty to a non trans child

ShineOnHarvestMoon · 06/10/2018 12:44

with my concern of using a bias document to advice a teacher on a very sensitive subject

There's a big difference between 'bias' and difference of views @chicken2015

One can disagree with someone else's arguments without claiming that the other person is 'biassed.' It's about logical arguments, backed up with verifiable evidence.

As a teacher, of whatever subject, you should know about this. You will have had to work in this way in obtaining whatever higher qualifications (a degree, a PGCE) you have obtained.

Keeptrudging · 06/10/2018 12:54

Pieceofpurplesky, my priority if faced with this would also be to the child. I'll call a child whatever their chosen name is, in the same way I'd call them a shortened version of their name. I might skirt round the pronouns issue by using 'they', which I wouldn't count as misgendering. You have neutral changing rooms/toilets, as well as sex-segregated ones, so one of my main issues around rights to privacy isn't an issue. Sounds sensible.

LangCleg · 06/10/2018 12:55

Pieceofpurplesky - would you be happy receiving confidential disclosures from any child (trans or otherwise) and not passing up the chain to your safeguarding lead? Would you consider allowing in-school social transition for a child based on similar disclosures without informing its parents or any other agencies? How about social transition at school for SEND children without informing the parents and even if other professionals working with the child disagree?

I'm sure everyone - on either side or in the middle - of this debate genuinely believe they have all children's best interests at heart. It's not about motive or intention.

This is why I keep asking about safeguarding specifics. And why I become highly suspicious when all I ever get in response is a range from pointless platitude to angry ad hominem. Nobody ever engages with the specifics. This, to me, is a massive red flag.

Raven88 · 06/10/2018 13:49

This ended up on Twitter.

Child in my class is trans
SuburbanRhonda · 06/10/2018 13:55

Illegal? Bless them Grin

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2018 13:55

Everything ends up on twitter.

Past caring.

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