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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Holy crap I've approached friends about GRA and now I'm crapping myself a bit!

165 replies

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 03/10/2018 20:33

So I’ve been following the trans discussions both here and in the press for a while now and I’m scared of how women are losing their voice and could be losing rights very soon. What is odd is that in RL no one I know has mentioned it. Ever. Not once.

So after watching so many brave women really putting their heads above the parapet tonight I’ve bit the bullet and sent a text to my close friends giving them the link to the GRA consultation and some reasons why I think it’s of interest to them to at least look at. This topic is something none of them have mentioned even knowing of.

Although I feel proud of myself for doing it I’m slightly shitting myself about the “friendship “ fallout and worried they think I’m bigot! Is this the adrenaline talking??!! Please talk me down

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CountFosco · 05/10/2018 07:14

Every time it's mentioned at work everyone is gender critical, the joys of being a biologist Grin. In the other hand my sister refused to believe that transwomen were housed in female prisons and is definitely 'woke'. My mother doesn't think men can be women but since she's also likely to come out with homophobic or sexist comments I sadly can't see that as a victory.

CountFosco · 05/10/2018 07:19

Bum, forgot to say I wrote to girl guiding about their policy and saying I was withdrawing DD from Brownies because of it and wrote to my MP about it, concentrating on the situation in prisons because of the recent publicity about Karen White and bricking it about that so can see understand how you feel! I am friends with our local green candidate and he's getting more woke by the day Sad.

GColdtimer · 05/10/2018 07:55

@Beesneeze82 I am just running out but a few examples in this board and the fair play for women site is good. I started s thread on British Gymnastivs policy which may have some examples. X

Beesneeze82 · 05/10/2018 07:57

Cheers. I'll check that out.

Tanith · 05/10/2018 09:25

My DH has started talking about this to male colleagues - he says that TW TRAs couldn't argue with men about this because they share a 'bro code' and would be called out immediately.

The TRAs are attacking any dissent, man or women, on Twitter and Facebook.
However, they’re winning the battle and losing the war with that behaviour: FB and Twitter are not real life and I believe it’ll be the real people having the courage to talk to other real people that will change minds where it matters.

Everyone I’ve spoken to has understood once it’s been explained.
My answer to: “It’ll never happen!” is “It has happened already; it is happening now!” and they’re shocked.

We are not saying that Trans women become predators when they identify; we are saying that predators are identifying as Trans women.
So far, there appears to be no desire on the part of the TRA lobby to address or resolve this problem. This adds to the alarm caused by the likes of Bradley, Challenor, White etc..
If you don’t want to be thought a sexual predator, maybe don’t behave like one? Just a thought...

ShotsFired · 05/10/2018 09:34

I follow (and like and comment) several GC pages on FB, and have done things like change my profile pic to the billboard etc.

I forget that many of these pages are public and I keep getting random likes and subtle comments from friends. I have two friends where we have mutually "come out" as full-on GC MNers.

(I also have one friend (of a friend from way back) who is full on mermaids transing her boy child, although so far the extent of his obvious, from birth, innate desire to be a girl has been shoulder length hair. Not to mention he saw his mum violently assaulted and EA by her ex from the minute he could comprehend...)

For every active MN poster there are 10 lurkers. For every 10 lurkers there are 100 in agreement.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 05/10/2018 10:30

*For every active MN poster there are 10 lurkers. For every 10 lurkers there are 100 in agreement.
*
This with bloody bells on! I think for any posters who are ready to bite the bullet and talk to people but very understandably feel nervous this sums up perfectly what's happening in the background. All day yesterday whilst out doing mundane everyday things I found myself taking notice of the Actual Biological Women around me and wondering "Are they a MNer?" and "Are they also as angry/scared as us?". I'm sure most of them thought I was odd staring at them 😊 but still it was awesome to think a couple of them were like me!

Thanks Twllbach and SparticusAutisticusAHF for links and facts provided further up. I really need to get better and reading and remembering more specific details over the next week to avoid the conspiracy theorist label that a few have mentioned, when I talk more.

LIttleCabbage - hows your message coming? Thanks for taking the step to do it, it's Friday too so maybe some Ginas you finish it later may help Smile

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GulagsMyArse · 05/10/2018 10:35

It’s been quite hard for me. I seem to be unfortunate to have some wokeirati around me.
Been told off ( by a straight man) for woman adult human female thang.

Yep a man telling me off for describing my self as a woman.

On the up side, family on board and a few friends.

Brother who is very brainy said consultantion was very hard to understand, if you don’t have knowledge about the law etc. This is even with the guides.

I’ve done some leaflets in toilets . Will keep buggering on.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 05/10/2018 11:12

I'm taking some leaflets to my local mosque beeze
Also putting them in the leisure centre women's changing rooms, the library (lots of mums and babies) and the hospital waiting rooms.

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 05/10/2018 11:20

Ifnot I hadn't thought of the library, excellent idea. I've been leaving them on trains when I travel, in station toilets, supermarket toilets - there's no hospital for miles around here.

I actually recently encountered my first woke bro IRL - having trans women on AWS is progress apparently. He's almost 50 so hasn't even got the excuse of youth.

GulagsMyArse · 05/10/2018 11:49

Oh yes I forgot, I left them in a taxi the other night.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 05/10/2018 12:14

I think that's a good point about the consultation, it is pretty off putting especially I imagine to someone who is looking at it fairly cold. Add to that Stonewall are one of the first search results people may look at for guidance it's worrying.

To quote a great Tshirt .... Nevertheless she persisted 😉

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Juells · 05/10/2018 13:12

Re facebook posts - I've been posting videos of Posie and links to articles for months now, getting no response, no replies. It was only sheer stubborness that kept me posting into the void. But yesterday, in response to my post sharing the Spectator article about 'trans rights have gone wrong' one of my nieces (mother of two young daughters) replied "I’ve been reading all your posts and, for me, the worst part is not necessarily this particular issue itself, but the fact that there is no safe way to respond to your posts, or voice an opinion, because I will be accused on some ‘ism’. You are correct, censorship is very much alive and well today and very insidious it is too. Whatever happened to ‘your freedom stops where mine begins’?" So even if people don't seem to see what you're posting, it could be speaking to someone who's afraid that they'll be targetted.

leonaza · 05/10/2018 15:14

I've just sent this email to Amnesty ([email protected] if anyone wants it). It is long! I really debated over whether to send it due to my fears of consequences, especially as I have worked with them before, but I've made something of that point - the hostile and fearful environment to which they are contributing with their stance against dissenters.

Here it is -

Hello,

I am writing to express my disappointment with Amnesty UK's stance on the GRA reform, its failure to consider the impact on or views of women and its contention that transphobia and media coverage are distorting the debate.

As a long time supporter of Amnesty, and someone who has worked with you on repeated occasions, I am dismayed that your engagement with this complex issue has been so one-sided and shallow. You advocate for the rights of women and girls around the world, highlight discrimination and violence suffered on the basis of their biological sex (periods, reproductive systems, lesser physical strength) and in particular push their right to same sex facilities for example in refuges or refugee camps - only this morning, you published a press release complaining about the dangers and discomfort for women in Greek refugee camps due to "men walking in" while they shower. Yet you uncritically accept the idea that in the UK anyone should be able to identify as a women and access such spaces whether or not they remain male bodied or have any intention to ever live as a woman, simply by filling in a form.

There are already many cases of this having been abused in the UK where organisations or institutions are already accepting self-id and in other countries where self-id has been implemented by law. The consequences of this expansion of the law are endless, from women being unable to request a female bodied person performing gynaecological treatment, even if a male bodied person doing so would cause them extreme distress; abusive ex-partners accessing their victims in refuges or traumatised rape victims feeling unable to go to refuges due to the presence of male bodied and male presenting people; male sexual offenders identifying as female and going on to assault women inmates - or even, in an ongoing case in Ireland, arguing that they shouldn't be liable for the crime committed under their previous identity at all; in sport, girls and women being discouraged from participation due to the physical advantage of male bodied competitors; to the skewing of statistics on which vital women's policies is based. This is not - as is repeatedly stated by those who wish to simply cry "transphobe" at any dissenter - a contention that transpeople are a danger, it is a contention that this is an enormous legal loophole which would be taken advantage of by non-trans people who wish to access women and children in vulnerable places, as predatory people have done in the Catholic church and public institutions throughout history. These are not even statements on trans rights, they are statements on the rights of women, who have a right to advocacy also. I therefore believe your characterisation of any questioning of the policy as transphobic is extremely simplistic and frankly discriminatory.

Just like women in Greek refugee camps, many women in the UK also feel uneasy while in the shower to have male bodied people walking in. Under self-id, they will not be able to challenge any man doing so even if they have strong reason to believe that that person is not truly a trans woman but accessing the space for malicious reasons, because if that person says he is a woman, then he is, and if you question that, you are a bigot. You do not appear to support the same rights for women in the UK as you do in the rest of the world, which is alarming. Nor do you appear to support free speech for women or indeed any group wishing to engage in debate about a fundamental question of gender and biological sex which does not only affect the transgender community but indeed all of us.

I have been engaging in the self-ID issue for some time now, and not on one occasion have I seen any gender critical person direct physical threats or slurs at transpeople or trans activists, yet people simply asking for a debate on the policy - which is currently open to public consultation - have been no-platformed, threatened, branded terfs - often accompanied with references to physical violence - had their personal details published online and calls put in to their employer demanding their firing. Jonathan Best, a gay activist, has been repeatedly threatened with violence since appearing on Radio 4 yesterday simply for asking for all views to be heard. Transgender women expressing dissenting opinions have received similar treatment, and given your support for both trans rights and freedom of expression, one would reasonably expect that support to extend to all transgender people, not only those whom you agree with.

I fully support trans people having exactly the same rights as anyone else of that gender. But there are huge safeguarding issues involved in a badly drawn policy of this kind that must be examined. Rights do not exist in a vacuum, they must also be balanced against the rights of other groups, and at the moment there are several other marginalised groups - including lesbians and gay men - who are sounding the alarm over the impact on their rights. Lesbians have been told, for example, that they are not gay women but in fact transgender straight men - their right to exist apparently being inconsequential. They have been told that they must accept sex with male bodied people who identify as trans women, or they are transphobic. To many lesbians this is tantamount to the idea of corrective rape. Yet you are blindly disregarding these concerns. Women and girls are disproportionately the victims of violence and discrimination more than any other group, yet your assessment focuses only on that suffered by trans people.

I also take strong issue with your contention that gender stereotyping is being encouraged by the gender critical - far from it, it is trans activists who are pushing the concept that if you don't feel like you "conform" to your birth gender along stereotypical lines then you probably don't belong to it. The narrowing of the boxes around what constitutes male and female is in fact extremely concerning, and I say this as a woman who has fought gender stereotypes throughout my life and career.

Amnesty has always stood for the right of people around the world to express their views. I believe in, and have consistently worked to promote, human rights and freedom of speech for all, not the prioritising of one group's human rights and freedoms over another. Amnesty should be encouraging reasoned debate, not taking a position that shuts down the views of one and brands them hateful while completely endorsing a view that is not shared by many, including many transgender people, gay men, lesbians, women and women's rights advocates. I am not asking Amnesty to support one side or the other, I am asking it to stick to the purpose for which it was founded - that of speaking up for the liberties of all, and for the right to dissent.

I cannot see that Amnesty UK has a women's rights officer, which seems to be a major failure, especially as other country offices do. If I am incorrect in that please let me know so I can direct my concerns to them. If I am not, perhaps in the interests of balance, and given that you do have officers for other marginalised groups, may I respectfully suggest you consider appointing someone who is able to represent the rights of women who do require protection on the basis of their biology.

Given the threats and harassment currently directed at those who engage with this issue, I must stress that you do not have permission to share any of my comments or personal details. I have debated long and hard about even sending this email, as like many women I now fear the consequences of speaking out in the hostile environment that has been created by branding dissenting views transphobic, to which Amnesty has contributed. I am afraid given the hardline 'no debate' position declared by your LGBTQ team, I will have to request that if my comments are passed around internally it is done so anonymously.

I never thought I would have to consider such risks to my career, reputation and person when contacting an organisation such as Amnesty that has done so much for freedom of speech and opinion around the world. I am truly shocked that this is the point to which we have arrived in this supposedly tolerant age.

Sincerely... etc

FekkoTheLawyer · 05/10/2018 15:18

👏

HandsOffMyRights · 05/10/2018 15:30

Great letter leon

I'm never going to be on the PTA again after outing myself as a T* to my son's HT who now hates me....

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 05/10/2018 16:09

Really articulate and well written Leon

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VintageFur · 05/10/2018 16:29

Scared to go public on FB - I have a friend who is heavily involved with pink news. We get on on so many levels and appreciate the same humour. Although he thinks "we" are uneducated (ie only possible reason for our TERFness).

Raised it with a couple of friends 200 miles beyond the backwaters. Much rolling of eyes as "the usual suspect mums" at the school include one trans girl child and one "non binary". Much agreement that the mums feel speshul. Sadly one of the children is autistic...

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 05/10/2018 16:38

Vintage I think one scary thing about FB is with sharing/liking a post can reach so much further (sp?) than is first intended. I'm a bit scared to do that step too as god only knows what will come back. Actually thinking about it I'd rather take the plunge and talk face to face as it feels safer IYSWM?

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placemats · 05/10/2018 17:22

Brilliant Leon

Star
leonasa · 05/10/2018 17:32

Thanks all! I will let you know if I get a response...

I feel so outraged and betrayed by all of this. In all the talk of triggering and feelings, did anyone ever stop to think how triggering it might be to many women to treat them (yet again) as if we are unimportant and hysterical? Oh no, of course not, because it's just our role to endorse the feelings of others.. again.

We will win this, though, of that I am certain, though the fight may be long...

QuilliamCakespeare · 05/10/2018 18:10

Three out of four I've spoken to so far heartily agreed. The fourth didn't say much but she's a pretty vocal feminist so I'm assuming she was contemplating...

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 06/10/2018 09:47

Quilliam that's great. I'm sure those who respond quietly are absolutely mulling it over.

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nails2018 · 07/10/2018 17:57

Ok, GRA completed. And talked to a friend who is also completing it. The FPFW guidance was really useful.

Antonia87 · 07/10/2018 18:27

Just got the 'wokest' of the 'Woke' young family member on board and doing the consultation! A major victory!!! So glad I ' came out'!

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