Autism & Gender Dysphoria: No proven link

[pennydrew]

Well since the discussion that was part of another thread got removed, for some odd reason, I thought I would start a conversation on this. To clarify, when people say there is a link, they are not referring to any data or study involving diagnosed autistic people. I have checked. I have seen language like, ' autistic traits' and ' autism spectrum related issues' but nothing credible. I am very careful not to assume a genuine link exists simply because people say so. It seems to be trendy to 'identify as autistic', but that is incredibly insulting and appropriation of a poorly understood condition. My daughter gets very upset at the casual way people discuss this link as if it is real, as a way to use autism to get acceptance for something entirely different and an ideology she finds personally threatening to her own rights- both as a woman and autistic person.

I'm very fond of saying that correlation is not proof of causation.

However, correlation can be a signal to investigate further. I've not read the Tavistock report fully so I don't know if they are saying there is a correlation or simply noting that there is a higher incidence of autism in the cohort than you would expect in the general population.

Either way I do think it is something that should be investigated further.

As an aside I have a wide ranging social group. Of the six people who have come out as Non-binary or trans at least five have autism (although I don't know for sure if they all have a diagnosis as it's none of my bloody business)

It really does feel that I'm watching social contagion in slow motion.

But I am seeing people say that I should be supporting trans people because I support and advocate for autistic people and most trans are autistic etc I think it is deliberate

I'm also sure people are being told they should support because they support gay rights, are left wing and so on. It very definitely is deliberate.

Thanks Betty I too am very glad. I honestly think that the outcome might have been different if she had been at school ....

I am aware of the desperate feelings of the parents of others

penny
But I am seeing people say that I should be supporting trans people because I support and advocate for autistic people and most trans are autistic etc

Yes, I think this is a real issue for anyone who is gender critical and supports and advocates for autistic people.

LadyBrianAdultHumanFemale I am not intending to be rude, whereas it is quite clear you are. I am the parent and partner of autistic people so please do not imagine I do not understand how hard this is, much of my life is spent fighting for them. PLENTY of people are stating it as fact. So that is what I am responding to. If you continue to respond aggressively to me I won't reply to you.

Penny I really think that you and lady are coming at this from a similar perspective.

More research is needed but any research that perhaps challenges transgender theory is very hard to get through accusations of transphobia.

The only chance the Tavistock have is by highlighting higher incidents of autism in their patient base. If they don't flag it then there will never be funding.

I don't know which thread was deleted so I don't know exactly what it is you are objecting to.

To me it seems that lady is highlighting the number autistic trans patients and arguing that they are not actually gender dismorphic but are possibly being encouraged by Trans advocacy to go down a highly medicalised path.

It’s entirely possible to support gender questioning and trans individuals whilst opposing the current transgenderist ideology.
Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise!

Current trans activism is even throwing fully transitioned transsexuals under the bus, so they certainly won’t prioritise getting the best long-term outcomes for ASD teenagers.

dolorsit yes for sure it is deliberate in terms of the TRA's. In terms of investigation, yes that is what i advocate for, rather than to accept it is a absolute connection, I think waiting for actual proof of before stating it as fact, is really important. Remember the vaccine-autism fiasco? There also a lot of other theories so I absolutely want to make sure this is given the care and sensitivity autistic people deserve.

MrBirlingsAwfulWife thanks for your comments too, its really good to hear from other Mums of autistic girls. I have found school to be difficult and actually found she had been asking them for help for ages and they hadn't given her any :( things are improving now but the worry was overwhelming for a long time.

Erm Penny, from reading the below I would interpret that Lady is saying she is/has autistic/autism.
(My bold emphasis and apologies if I am speaking out of turn)

Plenty of autistic women will tell you that had they been teens today they'd have been incredibly vulnerable to the genderist ideology. We can see what's happening with our own eyes.

To be fair though penny, you are the parent/partner of an autistic person. The posters here who have said they would have been trans'ed 10-20 years ago are autistic themselves.

Nothing personal here, but there is an ongoing issue with parents of children with autism talking over those who are themselves autistic

It would be good if the Tavi could be given some kind of secondary unit/referral pathway for the current crop of gender questioning children who may or may not have comorbid ASD (but surely have a right to have the possibility throughly explored before progressing down the trans pathway)
absolutely agree.

Nothing personal here, but there is an ongoing issue with parents of children with autism talking over those who are themselves autistic

As a parent of tweo autistic children I would agree with this

Our voices should be heard as we are the ones who have often gone through hell and have to deal with the fallout of their actions but they are the ones who are actually autistic, not us.

Starkstaring what you have written about anxiety and control makes a lot of sense to me.

My DD has extreme anxiety.

She has a demand avoidant ASD profile (PDA) and her life is overwhelmed by her anxiety driven need for control . So anxiety is without doubt part and parcel of her ASD.

But her anxiety is increased by sensory processing difficulties and emotional disregulation (she has OT weekly)

Add to that the results of years of the wrong approach and forced school attendance, together with bereavement which gives post trauma anxiety too. So she now has nuclear level anxiety - hence being EOTAS.

Eating is a big issue for my DD. Some difficulties stem from her sensory difficulties but others stem from her need for control. We employ a deliberate approach of allowing her pretty much to choose what and when she eats. If she can control those aspects, she has less need to control whether or not she eats. This is all under the supervision of her CAMHS psychiatrist and pyschologist.

As I put in my previous post, I do see anxiety / control as a possible factor in trans in people with ASD ...

dolorsit My focus has been on not stating that the two 'conditions' for want of a better word, are linked as if it is fact. My experience is that that of my teen and her friends, and I have not said I don't think that autistic people would not be vulnerable to the ideology. I am yet to be convinced they are more so than the average teen. But I can only base may thoughts on my own experience of autistic and non autistic teens, and of what i have read on the subject.

This topic deserves thorough research from a number of angles.

The voices of ASD adults who believe they would’ve been ’transed’ if they were young now should definitely be one of those angles.

Nothing personal here, but there is an ongoing issue with parents of children with autism talking over those who are themselves autistic
I am aware this happens. However, in this instance I do not believe I have talked over anyone. I am literally giving an autistic teens perspective, and that of a family who have recently undergone the assessment. So I also expect to be allowed a voice and to speak for her if she needs me to- even if it is a different perspective to other autistic people.I believe you are both misunderstanding my point. So again, my point is that when we speak of it, we should not do so in a way that confirms a link when a link has not been confirmed.

Nothing personal here, but there is an ongoing issue with parents of children with autism talking over those who are themselves autistic

I do understand that.

I feel it is important to engage in discussion as a parent too because it often challenges one's view and I know it adds to my understanding.

Wherever possible I try and convey my DD's position based on the (lengthy) conversations we have had. But it is always good to be reminded that we parents come from a secondary perspective.

My daughter gets very upset at the casual way people discuss this link as if it is real, as a way to use autism to get acceptance for something entirely different and an ideology she finds personally threatening to her own rights- both as a woman and autistic person.

I get that - totally. At the same time there are hints that these two pools of young people (those presenting as gender questioning and those with either diagnosed or strongly suspected autism) are overlapping. The question is how and why.

What (I think) your daughter is getting at is that she’s troubled by people positing a direct IF—>THEN relationship, as if something fundamental in her is causative of association with an ideology she strongly dislikes. I’d agree with her there.

What I suspect (and what others have outlined above) is the case is that this is more complex, but that the current social fad (and it is imo a fad) for presentation as gender questioning is linked to how society is failing girls. It’s failing girls with autism and autistic traits and frankly it’s failing girls in general.

Young women are coming of age is a highly sexualised society where their worth is deemed to hang on how they look and their social currency with others. That’s via social media, looks, behavioural pressures etc. There is a regression to dated and restrictive gender stereotypes. There is, in effect, only one ‘way’ to be s girl and that’s a specific look, dress, and behaviour.

A LOT of girls find this intolerable - psychologically unbearable. I would, if I were growing up now. What I suspect is that girls with autism or autistic traits find this especially unbearable, as it conflicts so strongly with the internal sense of ‘rightness’ they have. I think this is why such kids, especially girls, are overrepresented in gender clinics.

In effect, it’s a cry for help. There was a really good thread a while back aboit manifestation of such psychological pain in young women... let me see if I can find it.

For context, I am not a medic nor a neurologist/psychologist/psychiatrist but I am a scientist, with more than one first degree female relative with diagnosed autism.

Society is pretty toxic for young women just now :(

Penny

I'm sorry I don't quite follow your last post with the assertions of what you are not saying.

The only thing I can work out is that you are arguing that young people with autism are no more at a risk of falling for trans ideology than a NT teen.

And from your previous posts you don't believe the Tavistock figures because you think the individuals are either self-diagnosed or/and Tavistock are not qualified to diagnose.

Bowlofbabelfish
What (I think) your daughter is getting at is that she’s troubled by people positing a direct IF—>THEN relationship, as if something fundamental in her is causative of association with an ideology she strongly dislikes. I’d agree with her there

Yes! If I understand her and her friends correctly, then yes. Your comment covers a lot of my thoughts on it too.... and given me more to think about.

Their social difficulties, lack of interest in sex (dd describes herself as asexusal) or difficulty with sexual feelings, means that if they are struggline

WUT

I am autistic and have no idea what you're talking about. The social difficulties, yes, but not the sex ones. It is not your place to tell us how we feel.

Penny I read your comment that you don't think many trans identifying people would be intelligent enough to have an autism diagnosis. I wonder if you have heard of the first study of ROGD in girls that came out of Brown University in the US. That study found a very high correlation with girls who were identified as academically gifted and were in G & T programs who were also trans identifying. Of course that doesn't mean they are autistic but they are certainly as a group extremely bright. I remember reading studies on EDs and the stereotype of a teenage girl with an ED was an extremely bright high achieving "A type" personality. I think the concept that these behaviours are coping mechanisms for extreme anxiety does make a lot of sense from the few girls I have known with EDs.

Nothing personal here, but there is an ongoing issue with parents of children with autism talking over those who are themselves autistic

Yes. It patronising and on the same level as "does she take sugar in her tea" talk that is so insulting.

dolorsit I am not really arguing whether or not they are more at risk, they may be, I remain unconvinced but that may be because the teenage and adult autistic people I know are GC.
Correct re Tavi.
What I am saying is, if there is correlation, then we look further but in the interim we don't state anything as fact. Which is happening and as I am not on social media anymore I am relying on what the teens I know are telling me ( and formerly what kept getting screamed at me ).

I was objecting to the inference that I was in some way wanting a potential problem to be completely ignored, I do not and that I was trying to tell autistic women that they would not have been vulnerable to the current trans ideology. I am simply sharing what I see myself. Wuith teens today- again I am almost exclusively in the company of autistic people.

I also absolutely think that many of those transwomen identifying as autistic, are not autistic. The rates are so much higher than the general population ( I am talking of adults not teens ). I also note many would state on their own bio 'identify as autistic' etc so I also wanted to state the importance of assessments.