Autism & Gender Dysphoria: No proven link

[pennydrew]

Well since the discussion that was part of another thread got removed, for some odd reason, I thought I would start a conversation on this. To clarify, when people say there is a link, they are not referring to any data or study involving diagnosed autistic people. I have checked. I have seen language like, ' autistic traits' and ' autism spectrum related issues' but nothing credible. I am very careful not to assume a genuine link exists simply because people say so. It seems to be trendy to 'identify as autistic', but that is incredibly insulting and appropriation of a poorly understood condition. My daughter gets very upset at the casual way people discuss this link as if it is real, as a way to use autism to get acceptance for something entirely different and an ideology she finds personally threatening to her own rights- both as a woman and autistic person.

Betty, my daughter, her friends and my husband and his colleagues ( he is in IT ) are very gender critical. More so than me, in fact they got me thinking differently! I used to be a non-questioning, liberal feminist embracing anything anyone wanted to be or identify as! My autistic family challenged me as they frequently do :)

Another way of ‘masking’ is picking special interest areas that are popular with one’s peer group.

One of the reasons my son’s diagnosis came so late was he was never the ‘trains’ or ‘telegraph poles’ obsessive type, instead he picked things like the band, Nirvana, or Skateboarding, or at one particularly volatile stage, his then girlfriend.

Genderism is currently fashionable, thanks to the internet. I’m not going to pretend I have the expertise to know how that plays a part but there does need to be some proper studies. I suspect gaming with opposite sex characters comes into it too.

Re anorexia yes, that is the point though, as we learn new things about autism, many leading experts believe that eating disorders like that are a symptom or trait associated with sensory sensitivity. My childs school weighed and measure her twice, without telling me, because of the way they saw her eating. I am not sure what that has to do with this specific topic though. If you know enough about autism you'll understand why there is an eating disorder link and know that the way that is being discussed now is changing as we understand more about the 'why'.

Betty, could you elaborate re gaming? Sorry I am new here so I might be a bit out of the loop.

It was my son’s inability to understand WTF his sixth form peers were on about that brought me here initially, Penny!

I assumed he had bungled the distinction between sex and gender (sex being a biological fact and gender being a bunch of stereotypes) but it turned out, he had learned his understanding of it all from me over the years (I have mostly non-conforming friends, inc some transsexual people) and thus his peers would say I was in the wrong!

Did a google, fell through the rabbit hole, ended up here.

Autism certainly influences my world, many times in interesting and positive ways (although sometimes in exhausting ones).

Starkstaring, yes that all makes sense and you make some interesting points too. It may be that the fact so many think of autism as a male condition and the fact it presents differently in girls, its taking us all a while to spot it early in girls specifically. I have an autistic husband and I still did not notice or link traits until she was 10/11. It was harder I think because she did drama and she is really really bright, like I spent a lot of the early years having my mind blown! I did not know what to do with this clever little girl!! We thought since she was always 'happy' everything was hunky dory, but now realise she has trouble displaying a range of emotions, The signs were clearly there and we feel so much guilt about it. But we can only do better when we know better I guess. She suffered though, because we did not help sooner. Her eating was always unusual or ritualistic... I don't know how I did not do something sooner.... but that is another thread!

Betty, I am so with you. I would not change my daughter or my husband for anything, my life is enriched because of their amazing minds! But it can get lonely and I worry about my daughter navigating the world on her own, will she be ok without me? will she find a nice partner that understands, will she go to the doctor when she needs to? ( she has a big fear and I worry she won't get smears etc ) and yes, I am exhausted! But I also have hypothyroidism, endometriosis and a bunch of other crazy hormone imbalances!

I’m not best placed to explain it, but there is a train of thought about how being immersed in fantasy worlds, such as computer role play games and online environments like Tumblr, could be contributing to a separation of mind and body, especially amongst non-sporty, socially awkward kids who retreat into bedrooms.

Reconnecting with one’s own body (camping, rock climbing, cycling, getting a dog that needs walking, whatever) is often key in helping gender questioning children reconcile with their bodies.

My son isn’t much of a gamer (in part, because I realised early on that it frustrated him to the point of mood instability, so I stopped buying him new consoles and only bought slow moving, non violent games such as mine craft and in part because his comorbid ADHD leaves him with excess energy that he needs to burn off outdoors) but the retreat from the ‘real world’ into a virtual one that seems safer is an often occurring theme in children who then ‘come out’ as trans.

I thought "identifying as autistic" meant that one has a genuine diagnosis of autism, but chooses the label "autistic person" rather than "person with autism"

It may very well be the case. However, there does seem to be a trend for people to declare they are a bit autistic/on the spectrum without diagnosis. I imagine a lot is due to the difficulty of getting a diagnosis but there does seem to be a trend of a certain type who seem to appropriate the "title" as an excuse for their behaviour.

It drives both my friend with autism and my autistic friend absolutely wild.

Here's another theory: The clinical psychologist who saw me and my daughter (to help with her anxiety and depression) said that eating disorders are all about control - the individual using control to manage anxiety. Teenager girls presenting as transgender were new to her, but her working assumption was that changing your gender, and controlling how you present to the world and how people interact with you, is another mechanism for managing anxiety.

My son eats a very limited range of incredibly strong tasting foods. I’m hoping catered halls at uni will increase his range but he’s probably just going to cover everything in Tabasco.

Everyone thought it so amusing that there was this darling blonde toddler who loved olives and anchovies and wouldn’t dream of touching an oven chip.

It turned out to be symptomatic of sensory processing disorder, of course, only he went the opposite way to the stereotype 🙊

Thank you Betty. Very interesting. I am so pleased that despite not being sporty my DD walks daily and listens to her music, and is a rowing cox- her increased awareness is actually a good thing for once! Its helped her socially enormously, since a cox is kind of the boss! its given her something she wouldn't normally seek, leadership, and they also really look after her in a very sweet way.

dolorsit yes drives me and my family wild too! I have literally had people say, oh wow I think my husband is autistic as well! He never listens!' or ' you seem autistic too, do you think you have developed it from them?' or ' isn't everyone a little autistic?'

Starkstaring for some, but that is not the reason for sensory sensitivity. It is an overload. It physically hurts them. In a sense it is about control, but really it is about avoiding pain. The psychiatrist we saw ( I really recommend over a psychologist ) said the anxiety my daughter has is a traitof her autism, it is directly responding to sensory overloads. It is not like general anxiety.

That’s brilliant, Penny
I really do think there is a lot to be said for helping ASD kids find a way to be active and included, on their own terms - regardless of the gender thing.

My son’s primary school realised he couldn’t cope with PE and instead made him a sports monitor - he got to measure the long jumps and blow the whistle etc. This was all pre diagnosis so he was lucky to happen across teachers sensitive to his needs.

We don't do autistic people any favours by ignoring potential links and correlations. If clinicians are noticing an over-represention of autistic or possibly autistic people in a clinical population that needs exploring. It's that noticing and questioning which leads to research, and that research then helps validate the experiences of us autistics.

I find it jarring every time a school shooter is claimed to be autistic (or have 'traits'), and I'm sure those with mental health conditions feel the same when their diagnosis is used as an explanation for something abhorrent. But pretending the links are irrelevant doesn't help, we need to know if there's a risk/causative factor so we can ameliorate it.

If autistic teens are struggling more than non-autistic teens with their sexed bodies and gendered expectations we need to know why and we need to address it. Otherwise we risk de-sexing, and rendering infertile, a huge swathe of autistic kids.

Betty, oh that happened to my daughter too. Her tutor was also her PE teacher and remarkably, had already noticed some things before we even mentioned it... so she had taken it upon herself to include our DD in sports in a different way, like your situation, she would score or ref etc also pre diagnosis.

pennydrew I posted on the other thread but it weirdly seems to have disappeared. Thanks starting a new one.

Like dolorsit said, I feel like most people here would agree with your daughter.

When a 'link' is being mentioned (eg by the Tavistock), I have always understood it in the context of suggesting that the dysphoria the individual is experiencing at that moment may be real, but that (in some cases) it might be a symptom of an underlying autism which has not been properly supported/diagnosed/recognised?

Does that make sense? I'm not always good at explaining.

Ladybrain we also don't do autistic people any favours by listening to the wrong people and linking things without evidence. My main point has been that there is simply no evidence of it. I explained in an earlier comment with regards to 2 'studies' found. Because so many are self identifying, that is the issue I have. I won't accept there is a link if the link is from self identified young trans people. Sorry, but in the current climate where young people like to compete with each other over who intersects more oppressed groups, any self identifying of any kind should be met with extreme caution. So my point is: do not state it as fact. Wait.

Acorninspring Mumsnet deleted that thread. Geez.

The way you have explained it makes sense. But I am seeing people say that I should be supporting trans people because I support and advocate for autistic people and most trans are autistic etc I think it is deliberate, in that they know they have to be treated with more care and their feelings validated if they also say they are autistic or that the two are closely linked. Frankly, the typical TRA is too stupid to be autistic IMO.

acorn... there is a big issue with girls on the spectrum being misdiagnosed in general, so it very much could be that they are displaying some gender identity issues because they are not yet correctly diagnosed as or even suspected, autistic. It is interesting to me that this happens with females in a lit of areas of medicine. Like, lots of hypothyroid women are misdiagnosed with depression and given Prozac when they could have been given thyroid hormones.

My DD is 13 nearly 14 and is autistic. Issues of gender identity etc. are a common topic of discussion in our house!

She is not able to attend school so is educated at home (EOTAS)
Like many young people she has watched a great number of youtubers talking about themselves ad infinitum ......

DD questions her sexuality and challenges gender norms, but initially was seduced by the idea of "being trans". She is hypersensitive to feeling "different". She was also going through puberty and was dealing with periods etc. which for a young woman with sensory processing difficulties can be really difficult.

The idea that perhaps this wasn't the 'right' body for her must have seemed like a logical and appealing possibility. She also has strong drive to be in control - so the idea that she can control / change who she is perhaps seemed equally appealing. She certainly couldn't control the hormones and changes!

When I first offered a different perspective on some of the views of trans youtubers etc. she was horrified that I was showing signs of being a reactionary bigot! But because we had time to talk , she was able to grasp my concerns and questions. She widened her research and internet information sources. She came to her own conclusions and now whole heartedly shares the fears and concerns expressed by GC feminists and others.

Although she doesn't go to school, she attends a youth group for young people with MH difficulties and has friends who identify as trans. She has shown that she likes and respects trans individuals whilst still holding GC views and she has major concerns that trans ideology is damaging at an individual level and for women as a whole.

She says she can see how some aspects of ASD may lead some autstic individuals to question themselves and their identity more so than NT individuals. And given the paranoia in schools about being labelled "transphobic" and the desperate lack of MH /CAMHS resources, these individuals are going unsupported.

I've never heard her express the same frustration that your DD has :
My daughter gets very upset at the casual way people discuss this link as if it is real, as a way to use autism to get acceptance for something entirely different and an ideology she finds personally threatening to her own rights- both as a woman and autistic person.

DD thinks that some autstic people (and others with MH difficulties) are more vulnerable to this false ideology; rather than feeling that the correlation of autism with trans is being used to validate a falsehood.

I hope that makes sense.....

It would be good if the Tavi could be given some kind of secondary unit/referral pathway for the current crop of gender questioning children who may or may not have comorbid ASD (but surely have a right to have the possibility throughly explored before progressing down the trans pathway).

Otherwise we (as in the U.K.) are letting down our children.

Gawd knows adolescence is hard enough anyway, but for ASD kids it’s especially bewildering/challenging (and while I do not have experience of dealing with a dysphoric or dysmorphic teenager I am more than willing to accept that it’s a shit deal for them too).

My son’s worst years were 11-16, and touch wood, life is much better now.
I am so thankful that his condition did not require a decision on treatments that could ruin his physical well being forever.

So yes, more research, more CAMHS funding, more support for the Tavi go give them the time and resources to thoroughly explore every child referrals individual needs, and a way to discharge children to a different supportive pathway when appropriate.

Nobody is stating it as fact and I won't wait. Don't be so bloody rude.

How many autistic teens need to be collateral while we wait for research?

Do you know how hard it is to even research this stuff?

Plenty of autistic women will tell you that had they been teens today they'd have been incredibly vulnerable to the genderist ideology. We can see what's happening with our own eyes.

Awfulwife

So glad your daughter has come to a peaceful understanding of herself ❤️