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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anne Sinnott vindicated - she was right!

114 replies

SwiftNC · 26/09/2018 01:14

Link to article

But we knew that anyway!

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 01/10/2018 12:38

FlowersFlowersFlowers

LangCleg · 01/10/2018 12:40

Also from me to you, Ann - Flowers Flowers Flowers

ScrimshawTheSecond · 01/10/2018 12:41

Anne, thank you and well done.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 01/10/2018 12:42

sorry, Ann

Poppyred85 · 01/10/2018 12:42

A very unMumsnetty whoop whoop from me Ann.

Ahem, as you were...

arranfan · 01/10/2018 12:44

@AnnMSinnot wrote: Hello Tigresses of Mumsnet!

I'm loth to disagree with you after your splendid work but we're vipers.

Prepared however, to be whatever a tigress viper hybrid would be as that sounds like an excellent heraldic symbol. :)

NobodyToVoteForNow · 01/10/2018 12:49

The state of those men in the photos Shock

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 01/10/2018 12:53

Flowers fantastic work Ann - local politics seriously needs more like you

SmellyHead · 01/10/2018 12:58

Thanks for you Ann and thanks for coming here to see us!

AnnMSinnott · 01/10/2018 20:47

Don't worry, worse things have happened than having my name misspelt!

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 01/10/2018 20:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoftSheen · 01/10/2018 20:56

Thankyou Ann! Flowers (from a resident of Petersfield who voted for you, and was sad to see you go).

R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 21:04

original thread (includes the minutes detailing Cllr Sarah Brown's role in the change to Equality Act policies in Cambridge) :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3322389-labour-councillor-quits-in-row-over-facilities-for-trans-people-the-times

Ann Sinnott in discussion with Venice Allen:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327625-venice-allen-speaks-to-anne-sinnott

AnnMSinnott · 01/10/2018 21:12

Whether tigers or vipers, you are collectively formidable - politicians quake, grown men groan Smile

It's me that's doing the purring right now - you're all so kind, and bouquets and whoops too, and a glass of wine - lucky me.

Those who haven't already done so, am sure you'll do the GRA consultation. Some of you have commented on EA. I intend to weave in comments about the EA when I do the consultation. The two Acts can't really be considered without reference to the other, because of the interplay between the two, it's crackers to have two different pieces of legislation, they should be folded into one - and, to my mind, the single-sex exemption should be opt out not, as it is at present, opt in - and the opting out should only be exceptional. You probably don't need it but pass on FairPlay and/or Woman's Place guidance
fairplayforwomen.com/how-to/
womansplaceuk.org/wpuk-guidance-on-gra-consultation/

Will drop in again an other time!

Ikeasucks · 01/10/2018 21:20

So, did someone deliberately change the wording of the guidelines away from the actual legally protected characteristics to an un authorised characteristic to favour trans rights - who would do that 😮. Must have been accidental, surely.

ChattyLion · 01/10/2018 21:20

Thank you for pointing out the law Ann. Flowers

NotANotMan · 01/10/2018 21:26

Sarah Brown did that, deliberately

R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 21:32

So, did someone deliberately change the wording of the guidelines away from the actual legally protected characteristics to an un authorised characteristic to favour trans rights - who would do that

From the thread inked above, PencilsinSpace wrote:

"Here are the minutes from the Cambridge City Council meeting where they chose to play fast and loose with the EA when it was only 10 days old.
democracy.cambridge.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=159&MId=376

The committee received apologies for absence from Cllr Boyce, Cllr Brown attended as a substitute. Hmm

10/57/SR - Annual Review of Equalities (near the bottom of the page):

Councillor Brown proposed a number of amendments to strengthen the protection for transgender employees and service users. Other members of the committee expressed support for the proposal, although it was noted additional notice about the amendment would have aided the debate. The Head of Strategy and Partnership advised the committee of a number of proposed amendments to address the concerns raised. The Scrutiny Committee endorsed the following amendments by 5 votes to 0;

· Insert into “Employment Practices” section - We will not exclude transgender people from positions, which require a gender-appropriate candidate.

· Insert into the “Valuing our customers – delivering services” section - transgender people will not be excluded from gender-appropriate single sex/sex segregated facilities operated by the council

Shit stinks."

Beamur · 01/10/2018 21:46

This thread reminded me to check a website for an authority local to me. Says 'gender' not sex. I have emailed the web support pointing out there is an error.

UpstartCrow · 01/10/2018 21:52

I sincerely hope you return to politics, Ann.

Angryresister · 01/10/2018 21:58

Another success...well done Ann Wine

R0wantrees · 01/10/2018 22:07

Sarah Brown and others protest Cambridge City Council's decision to correctly apply Equality Act 2010 legislation:
(extract)
"Cambridge City Council are proposing altering their equality policy in a way which protesters say will end the non discriminatory policy which protects trans people.

The current policy, introduced in 2010, was a non discriminatory policy for trans people in public places, including toilets.

Sarah Brown, who organised today's (September 30) protest at the Lion Yard public toilets, believes all women and trans people could be put at risk by the change if it is approved.

She told Cambridgeshire Live: "Women friends of mine are appalled. People when they find out can't believe this is happening in Cambridge, as one woman said 'that's stupid'."

"When this sort of thing happens everyone assumes it's about toilets, people make it about toilets."

Protesters gathered outside the Lion Yard toilets
Sarah and other protesters feel all women will be affected and there could be violent threats made towards women who don't conform to traditional ideas of femininity.

She said: "Why do women always have to pay the price for this kind of thing? It's not only trans women who end up affected.

"You can't tell by looking at someone if they're trans."

She added: "You might get someone, especially after a few beers or something, saying a woman who, maybe she's got short hair or is a butch lesbian or has Polycystic ovary syndrome and doesn't look womanly enough and he goes and thumps her, that's happened before.

"We don't want that to happen in Cambridge. It's a dreadful message. We sent a message eight years ago, symbolically, Cambridge is a city that welcomes everyone. If you are LGBT, we've got your back and this [the policy amendment] sends the opposite message.

"It's already making people uncomfortable and worried."

"If you're a trans person, in particular a trans woman, normally we want normal lives and get on with things."

"You want to get by without anyone noticing. Anything that puts us in the public consciousness in a negative light fragments things.

"When Ann Sinnott resigned she started talking about intimate things people do. What is she doing there?" (continues)

In response Cambridge City council has suggested amendments including, replacing references to “gender” with “sex” and replacing references to “transgender” with “gender reassignment” or “transsexual people”. The council says these changes would mean the policy is consistent with the law.

Amendments to the policy also make explicit that the council has discretion to apply the “single sex exemption” in the Equality Act 2010 in very exceptional circumstances.

This exemption enables public bodies to exclude transsexual people from single sex spaces, facilities and jobs where this is a “proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim” and where there is “clear evidence” this is necessary.

Sarah Brown, a former Cambridge city councillor, organised the Lion Yard protest today (September 30)
What protesters had to say
Karen Draper joined the protest because she believes it's "ridiculous" this is still an issue in 2018.

Karen, who has lived in Cambridge for 18 years, told Cambridgeshire Live: "It's something that really interests me. I can't believe we're still having to protest this, everyone should be equal and free to pee where they like."

Protesters handed out leaflets and spoke to people outside the Lion Yard toilets.
Aldabra Stoddart said she was worried about how people would treat less feminine women.

She said: "I'm here because I'm an ugly woman, I don't want people telling me off on my way to the loo or staring me up and down."

Many of the protesters were worried about how the new policy, if approved, will be policed by the council.

Karen Draper, Claire McGuiness and Aldabra Stoddart all questioned whether carrying ID would need to be compulsory, would the issue be self policed by other bathroom goers and if so how would you prove you were a woman?

Karen said: "Where do you draw the line? If you have short hair, or you can't go in if you're wearing trousers? Where do you draw the line?"

Claire McGuiness added: "There are questions about who will police it?"

Claire also raised concerns about how the policy could limit the accessibility of public places for trans people in the city.

She added: "If you can't use public places then you have to stay at home and then what?"

Sarah said people had been very positive about the protest.

She said: "We've been getting a very positive response. They are wishing us well, asking if there are more protests."

What comes next?
Councillors will be asked to vote on a report detailing the council's amendments at the Environment and Community Scrutiny Committee on October 4.

Sarah Brown will be attending and speaking at the meeting, appealing to the council not to go ahead with the changes." (continues)

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambridge-transgender-lion-yard-toilet-15219396

Ikeasucks · 01/10/2018 22:32

Karen said: "Where do you draw the line? If you have short hair, or you can't go in if you're wearing trousers? Where do you draw the line?"

Fucking lol - some folk are as thick as pigs hit- that’s bad enough, but to advertise it willingly!

RepealtheGRA · 01/10/2018 23:54

Are they really trying to say that blokes can’t tell the difference between ‘ugly women’ and other blokes, really? Shock

I think they may be judging others by their own levels of ignorance there.

PencilsInSpace · 02/10/2018 00:31

Don't worry, worse things have happened than having my name misspelt!

Yes, like Cambridge City Council denying women and girls their sex-based rights for eight years because of what Sarah Brown did.

You put that right Ann, and have created precedent that will make it very hard for any other council to pull the same trick.

Thank you!

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