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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

2 reasons why I couldn’t peaktrans my sister

55 replies

Destinysdaughter · 25/09/2018 20:17

I had a chat with my older sister last week about the issues we discuss on here on a daily basis. It was much harder than I imagined it would be. She’s a woman in her 50s, ex teacher and v rational. The 2 stumbling blocks, that I struggled to refute were, her argument that, if it’s such a big deal as I was making it out to be, why wasn’t it being reported in The Guardian, the BBC, R4, Women’s Hour etc ( the main places where she gets her news information).

The other sticking point was her assumption that trans women were men who had had a sex change operation, AKA old school transsexuals. She was perfectly ok with them being regarded as women. However she just couldn’t believe that men who are actually what would have been considered transvestites were now claiming to be women. It really brought it home to me what we are up against when I think a majority of the unsuspecting public may well think like this.

Just wanted to share this and would appreciate any advice in countering these arguments?

OP posts:
ImPreCis · 25/09/2018 21:58

Suggest that she just has a browse through the threads on MN. It has worked for me and everyone I have Peak Transed since.

Is Posie’s ‘rant’ too much to start with? Someone on here the other day said it was responsible for her ‘Peak Trans’ moment.

GirlGuides? As a teacher she must be able to start at the safeguarding/whistleblowing aspect and move on from there.

ImPreCis · 25/09/2018 22:05

Thinking about the schools angle, show her Allsorts advice to schools. That has been rolled out to many EAs now. Then look at Transgender Trend to see how it should be done. Again, she must be able to see how dreadful the advice from the former is re girls and safeguarding/equality.

nauticant · 25/09/2018 22:08

This is a very NSFW blog post about a transwoman wanting to overcome the cotton ceiling:

tgforum.com/wordpress/the-cotton-ceiling

The cotton ceiling isn't just this one person's world view. It's all over the place.

Other impacts on lesbians:

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/?st=jcrgu3hc&sh=494e4e95

ScreamingBird · 25/09/2018 22:21

I read hundreds of transition stories. That was what did it for me. I'd advise everyone to get onto the internet and find out what people are actually saying.

ScreamingBird · 25/09/2018 22:23

Finding all the amazing, intelligent women in gender critical and radical feminism was just an awesome extra.

Charliethefeminist · 25/09/2018 22:25

Terf is a slur. That's jaw-dropping for a newbie.

nauticant · 25/09/2018 22:28

Lily Maynard is a strong voice in this:

lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2017/12/16/i-know-whos-going-to-be-on-the-wrong-side-of-history-and-it-isnt-me/

The rape centre case:

www.feministcurrent.com/2012/05/14/rape-relief-v-nixon-transphobia-and-the-value-of-women-only-space-an-interview-with-lee-lakeman/ (I initially was going to use a wikipedia link but then remembered that is a dodgy source when it comes to trans issues.)

An academic viewpoint:

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Personal experience of detransition (which never happens):

4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/

Needs no introduction:

www.sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

How to determine that a pre-verbal child is trans:

vimeo.com/185149379

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/09/2018 22:30

I had a chat with my older sister last week about the issues we discuss on here on a daily basis. It was much harder than I imagined it would be. She’s a woman in her 50s, ex teacher and v rational. The 2 stumbling blocks, that I struggled to refute were, her argument that, if it’s such a big deal as I was making it out to be, why wasn’t it being reported in The Guardian, the BBC, R4, Women’s Hour etc ( the main places where she gets her news information).

Great question. It is because all of these sources are very biased on this topic IMO. This has been one of the most frustrating things for me, and I am beginning to think it is due to their significant ideological investment in trans activism (an easy way to virtue signal, someone said) and the backlash from TRAs.
So illustrate it with a specific case.
Look at the crimes of Gary Dean Marie aka Marie Dean, a dangerous offender:
www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/4390490.Cross_dressing_Burnley_and_Padiham_burglar_jailed_indefinitely/

Ask why the Observer (and Pink News) was almost championing for this dangerous male to be moved into a place full of vulnerable women? ( www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/27/marie-dean-trans-prisoner-male-prison-hunger-strike ). They actually had to be corrected to add in Gary/Marie's sordid past.... ( www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/01/marie-dean-story-shows-there-s-no-simple-answer-how-we-treat-transgender )

The other sticking point was her assumption that trans women were men who had had a sex change operation, AKA old school transsexuals. She was perfectly ok with them being regarded as women. However she just couldn’t believe that men who are actually what would have been considered transvestites were now claiming to be women. It really brought it home to me what we are up against when I think a majority of the unsuspecting public may well think like this.

Genuinely, have her look at the Stonewall website.

Start with Stonewall's glossary of terms.

Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.
www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms#t

You can ask her about why crossdressers are now trans?

Then look at the Stonewall Trans Advisory Group page. www.stonewall.org.uk/trans-advisory-group

Perhaps talk through Aimee Challenor and what happened with David Challenor. Note Alex Drummond. Watch the video of Magdalen Berns taking down Stonewall. Ask just how wide she thinks the "bandwidth of woman" should be:

This is the most respected LGBTQ+ organization in the UK. Let her go right to the source.

Badstyley · 25/09/2018 22:32

I had a row on Facebook today. My friend posted that she didn’t want men in women’s spaces, and when she’d been in a unisex toilet on Sunday a man d had touched her.
Then this young pink haired woman came on and said, sorry for you, but you can’t keep trans people out because of pervy men. Everyone should be inclusive and allow people to use the toilets of the sex with which they identify, and if women are uncomfortable they should go elsewhere, and something about preventative discrimination being bad, or something.
You can’t argue with stupid

WineGummyBear · 25/09/2018 22:34

I'm having the same conversation with a colleague and a gay family member. They can't get over the historic Stonewall=good association. (Which obviously used to be correct).

I seem to remember an article (possibly by a lesbian or a gay man ) which explained why the accusation that gender critical perspective is like the old gay conversion therapy is a completely false comparison. Can anyone help me find the link?

DJLippy · 25/09/2018 22:47

This is good. Written by Jonothan Best long time LGBT campaigner and his recent experience with trans politics.

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

heresyandwitchcraft · 25/09/2018 22:51

I second the Jonny Best recommendation. He is really speaking up for women and has written some fabulous pieces.

Connor Kelly has also produced excellent work, full of empathy and so well-explained:
medium.com/@connorskellymusic/what-happened-to-our-movement-a1239d7a11d5

Ereshkigal · 25/09/2018 22:53

I had a row on Facebook today.

Agree you can't argue with stupid, but what did you reply? Paraphrasing.

Charliethefeminist · 25/09/2018 23:12

Glinner?

pitterpatterrain · 25/09/2018 23:22

Bunce came up in conversation today at work. The general response is confusion - and “are we allowed to say that makes no sense?!”

Charliethefeminist · 25/09/2018 23:27

Bunce did a good job peak transing the upper middle chateriti I think

SlothSlothSloth · 25/09/2018 23:35

Haven’t RTFT so sorry if others have suggested these but here are some cases to highlight:

Hannah mouncey the Australian trans footballer - show her the pics of this vast beast competing against tiny women

Andraya Yarwood - the male teenager who has not undergone transition at all yet is allowed to compete against teen girls in races just because of identity. Find the article about how two of the top three places in the races she competes in were taken by “trans girls” - in this case males who have not undergone treatment

Danielle Muscato

Jess who got her dick out at her desk

Stay away from the Aimee/GP stuff - too convoluted

SlothSlothSloth · 25/09/2018 23:37

And oh god yes DEFINITELY bunch. Lily madigan too I think, highlighting the fact that she became women’s officer after identifying as a woman for two years or so - and still looking totally male and not having had any treatment of any kind

Badstyley · 25/09/2018 23:45

Eresh
I probably did a bad job actually, I always think of the perfect come back hours later.
I pointed out the ridiculousness of her comments. I pointed out that pervy men don’t come with the neon sign above their head advertising the fact, so we don’t know who they are until it’s too late. Then I reflected her words back to her, that she thinks we should be inclusive to any males who want to use the female facilities, and that women who don’t like it should go elsewhere. Then I asked her how this is in any way inclusive. Then she got all ooh now you’re being mean you’re a horrible person and blocked me. Not quite sure why she did that. I’ve never met her in my life and hope never to do so. Oh well, if it made her feel better.
She really is immensely thick.

TimeForDebate · 26/09/2018 00:03

Show her the phalloplasty arm scars - see what is being done to troubled women in this lunatic Orwellian world

Ereshkigal · 26/09/2018 01:33

Then she got all ooh now you’re being mean you’re a horrible person and blocked me.

It doesn't sound like you did a bad job at all. If she thought she was winning the argument, she would have continued or she would have blocked you from the outset. What made her run away is the realisation of her own cognitive dissonance and the discomfort and unease that caused her. You planted a seed.

Sashkin · 26/09/2018 05:53

What peak transed me was the fact that 99% of the transwomen I have met over the past five years have been young men with clear personality disorders and substance abuse problems who rapidly detransitioned again after a month or two. Female oppression is not something you can take a fucking holiday in. I’m not letting random male tourists into female spaces for a quick nose around before they go back to being cis men again once the novelty wears off.

Many of the TW I know who detransitioned did a total 180 and became MRAs. They were never women, they were just young men with fucked up ideas about masculinity (in both incarnations). They need to grow the fuck up.

KateGrey · 26/09/2018 07:19

MN peak transed me. I never realised how bad and awful things were until I came across threads like this. Once again women are being marginalised on the say so of men.

Socrates11 · 26/09/2018 12:39

heresyandwitchcraft that Magdalane Burns video is cracking. Just love how she pulls it all apart #coolcat