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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

770 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 23/09/2018 01:04

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

OP posts:
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CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 08:25

And really, Do you think that children should be told lies about biological reality?

vicviking · 23/09/2018 08:25

Medina
Because someone who likes 'girlish' activities is not a girl and the girls know that and have lost that space to be free from males. I went to both mixed and single sexed secondary schools. A single sex space was the making of me. Freedom from male gaze and male norms. Freedom to use your voice and not have to hold back in any way because of boys in the room. Which (like it or not) does happen. Report after report will tell you this.

Not every girl needs a single-sex space but they should exist for those who do. Especially when you see the pressures on young women growing up these days.

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 08:27

Do you think that any of this should have happened to please the tiny tiny minority, without asking the majority?

deepwatersolo · 23/09/2018 08:28

Girlish activities, eh? Funny how woke inclusiveness always seems to go along with sexism.

LadyBrian · 23/09/2018 08:28

So sorry Helen, they've made it clear now what/who their priorities are and I hope this at least means more people will realise what's going on. Such a shame for so many girls Flowers

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 08:28

Do you think a female organisation should listen to men-advocating charities with no expertise in child development, education or safeguarding. Or should they listen to women and girls?

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 23/09/2018 08:29

Agnes I am so sorry. You have acted exemparily throughly this and have been a beacon of truth.

There’s something boggling away at me: it’s not just that the trans borg is destroying individual safe spaces or women’s o Lu activities - it has on a sixpence turned my most trusted and loved organisations (GG, BBC, Guardian) into my most distrusted. I now shrink from eg volunteering to help a women’s programme at my old college as I implicitly assume there will be trans women there. My whole foundations are rocked and I am doing less for women and girls. And that I am doing to myself - somehow my mind set has been changed without anyone doing anything to me. It’s pernicious and far more far reaching than at first sight it seems to be.

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 08:29

Sorry, should make it clear all my questions are for meditrina

Washedwithrain · 23/09/2018 08:29

Why shouidn't someone living as a girl take part in girlish activities?

I don't even know where to start with that nonsense (on more than one level).

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 08:30

Working

Me too

TimeLady · 23/09/2018 08:36

Comments starting to appear, all supportive of your position, Helen. This is going to be seen clearly as a simple safeguarding issue.

LemonJello · 23/09/2018 08:38

I completely concur with PPs that this is not just about safeguarding, it is also about the right to privacy, dignity and the importance of girl only space.

However, regarding safeguarding, Girl Guides have very strict protocols on place of a male child of a guide leader wants to join them in a residential. If this child identifies as a girl, the protocols are abandoned.

Girl Guiding say:

“[W]e do allow volunteers’ family members to attend residential events. Such requests are carefully considered by the local commissioner and as a part of the mandatory risk assessment or any trips. However this same process would not apply to a trans girl as this would be a breach of the Equality Act.”

However, the Equality and Human Roghts Commission (the body charged with upholding the Equality Act 2010) disagrees. They say:

The exclusion of trans people from membership of organisations and access to benefits and services that they provide would normally constitute unlawful gender reassignment discrimination, unless this is expressly permitted and justifiable by reference to exceptions from the non-discrimination principle. The most relevant here being membership of associations (schedule 16 EA 2010) and the provision of communal accommodation (schedule 23 EA 2010).

As a single-characteristic association for the purposes of schedule 16 of the EA 2010, Girl Guiding UK can choose to refuse membership to trans girls, or choose to admit trans girls as members.

As a provider of communal accommodation for the purposes of schedule 23, paragraph 3, Girl Guiding UK can also choose to exclude or include trans girls. Operating trans inclusive policies is permissible, provided that this is consistent with the rights of others and justifiable. The risk of sex discrimination against other members can be a relevant consideration in this context.

These matters must be approached carefully and sensitively, without prejudice, stereotypes or unwarranted assumptions. We consider that a case-by-case approach to the operation of any exception, including the question of whether reliance on any exception can be objectively justified, will be appropriate and necessary. Where organisations decide to adopt trans inclusive policies and practices, the needs of all members or service users have to be considered in any particular case.

The EA 2010 does not prohibit the use of risk assessments and other safeguarding procedures where warranted in individual cases.

So GG have either misunderstood the Equality Act (unlikely, as they would have had legal advice) or they have been misled about their duties under the EqA (by who? Would be interesting to see who has advised them) or they are wilfully misinterpreting it to suit their own agenda.

LemonJello · 23/09/2018 08:39

TL:DR

Girl Guiding say that the Equality Act prohibits them from carrying out risk assessment.

The body who enforce the Equality Act say this is not the case.

Redkeyboard · 23/09/2018 08:41

Do you think a female organisation should listen to men-advocating charities with no expertise in child development, education or safeguarding. Or should they listen to women and girls?

Quite.

Redkeyboard · 23/09/2018 08:44

Girl Guiding say that the Equality Act prohibits them from carrying out risk assessment.

The body who enforce the Equality Act say this is not the case.

So who is giving Guides the incorrect legal advice that is leading to them binging normal safeguarding practice?

ApplesinmyPocket · 23/09/2018 08:46

I'm so sorry you've been treated like this, Agnes Flowers

What HAVE we come to, that we expel good women for actually trying to safeguard the girls in their care?

So that we can pacify the delusions and demands of males....

SophoclesTheFox · 23/09/2018 08:49

I am really sorry that it's come to this, agnes.

That is shabby treatment. Purging people with wrongthink is never the sign of a healthy organisation.

GoldenWonderwall · 23/09/2018 08:50

What a shame. If the gg were sure they had made the right decision they would be able to debate it robustly and clearly to their volunteers. The lack of surety is what jumps out at me with the kicking people out that don’t go along with a fundamental policy change.

The lack of clarity for parents and the policy to not inform them is shocking from a safeguarding point of view. There should be no secrets at all.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 23/09/2018 08:51

I'm so sorry to hear this Agnes, and so sorry that GG have fucked it all up.

Lady, if you need any money to move this along, just ask

X < not mumsnetty, but frankly, who gives a fuck any more?

deepwatersolo · 23/09/2018 08:52

Falsely invoking the EA smacks of either incompetence or cowardice.

Either they don‘t know better or they don‘t want to own up to the free choice they made.

averylongtimeago · 23/09/2018 08:53

I'm so sorry Helen.

As s Guider I have taken girls away many times, camping and indoors. The girls, guides and Rangers, aged from 10 up to 18.
There are strict safeguarding rules regarding contact between adults and children and about males on site. Basically they have separate sleeping,bathroom and changing facilities. At a large camp this summer for example, leaders male children over 8 had to sleep in a separate area away from the main camp.

There are many leaders who are worried that all safeguarding rules vanish as soon as someone says they are trans, plus we can't tell other girls or parents to give them a choice.

As for "girly activities" hahaha. Guiding has always done everything that the scouts do and more, just in a girl only space. I could post pictures of my Guides lighting fires, up trees, climbing, canoeing, covered in mud, building things, problem solving... but I won't because of safeguarding rules....

Helen has publicly said what so many think, she has been punished for this, for not toeing the line and it's an absolute disgrace.

OvaHere · 23/09/2018 08:56

So sorry to hear this, I wish I could say I was shocked.

The GG have made themselves so vulnerable to exploitation by creating this massive loophole. Lets pray they don't have any David Challoner types ready to pounce.

TimeLady · 23/09/2018 09:02

Does anyone have access to an up-to-date trustees' report? I can only find the 2016 version on the Charities Commission website.

I'd be interested to know if this change of policy has anything tie in with a new source of funding.....

CrackpotsArePots · 23/09/2018 09:02

Time

Yes. Follow the emoney

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 23/09/2018 09:04

GG have basically spun the roulette wheel

where will the little ball land?

pregnancy arising from two 'girls' having sex at a guide camp?

one 'girl' raping another at a guide camp?

a predatory 'female' leader have sexual contact with a girl?

only one or more of the events above will bring this nonsense to an end, but in the meantime how many girls will have been gaslighted about biological reality, will have been told not trust their instincts, that their desire for an all female space does not matter.

jesus.