Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

Ha ha. The vice president of UoL FemSoc is a zoology student. She should have a word with whoever is running their twitter account

Look at the state of them indeed (blue hair...check!). You know how you look back on some things you did when you thought you knew it all and cringe a bit? These two (and others like them) are going to be in therapy for years when they realise exactly how complicit they were in this absolute shitshow.

Today I put my daughters on the waiting list (formality - the group has spaces) for Beavers. (Excuse lack of paragraphing here - MN has eaten my enter key) I believe firmly in what Guiding has to offer - however it is GGUK's response to its volunteer leaders raising valid concerns regarding safeguarding that have me deeply concerned about the organisation's ability to keep kids safe. If they had stood up after the initial concerns about where their policies were going and said, "yep, we can see why you're concerned - let us do some more work around the issue and take further advice" - I'd have been fine with that to be fair (as long as they DID and didn't just fob off)....... However - bulldozing through with this line that parents don't actually have any rights to make actual INFORMED consent regarding the choices they're making for their own daughters in terms of sharing overnight accommodation with a biologically male child and basically stand there saying "yep, we're going to lie to you, we're going to withold information from you and if you question this you're a bigot" - that's wrong and then going all out on this purge of leaders who are raising all these perfectly valid concerns... that makes me have absolutely no confidence whatsoever in the organisation being able to keep my kids safe...... Not a fear of kids with willies, but a fear of the whole prevailing mindset of GGUK where they'd rather kick leaders out than actually consider the implications of their policy as it currently stands and that's the reason I'm pulling my kids out of the organisation - as they hit the transition point to the next age range they will not be continuing (one is due to move up in the next few months).

bigKite - It's not that simple. (eeek, I am also having the enter key issues, no paragraphs!!) Now is the time to fight to keep the organisation to benefit girls, the female-born, not carry on as normal and hope it won't affect you or your daughters directly (which seems the stance you are taking). Because in a few short years the actual benefit for girls will be gone, it will become an org where girls are taught to defer to TG instead of stand up for themselves. It will potentially become a place where Bad Things could happen (because: penis). Make a stand. Take the short term inconvenience for the medium/long term gain. Otherwise you look like someone who waits around for others to make things right, and someone who won't be inconvenienced at all.

It would be sweet justice if the end result of all this was a new breakaway Guides was formed - a para-feminist organisation churning out all the future uppity women! (ok, that is more of a dream really)

Sorry, you don't get to say what my personal dignity means for me, and how I'm allowed to consider it violated, or decide that I'm not a feminist because I don't pander to male feelings like you do. That's really not what feminism is for. Fuck right off.

Has Lisa's video been posted on GG twitter? yes if everyone could please go and share it that would be great.

As an up pity woman I can confirm I am self-made. Mwahaha. The boys cant 'feel' their way into that one!

It's made trickier because gg is single sex, I personally wouldn't be comfortable with my daughter at that age being in a sleep over situation - but it would depend on the arrangements.

DD boards at school and they have a trans young person in her house, they sleep in a single room (huge as it was designed to accommodate a wheelchair) and is en suite, it's neither on the boys nor girls floor. This is the best scenario both for safety and to not push the yp, they do change their minds, another trans yp we know has

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I'd like to know what the insurers think of the policy of secrecy from the parents on which sex the person is who is sharing a tent with their daughter. I think I will phone in the morning.

My daughter's name was on a list for Guides, it will be coming off.

Secondly did anyone hear 5Live this morning? How did that go? I had to go into work so couldn't listen but seemed to be taking a pro trans view at the start.

I keep coming back to this and thinking it's all a bad dream . Have emailed GG, I look forward to getting their standard, couldn't-give-a-crap response

Sorry another question are Brownies technically part of Guides or entirely separate?

are Brownies technically part of Guides or entirely separate Girl Guiding is the organisation that runs Rainbows, Brownies, Guides and older senior sections. Rainbows (5-7), Brownies (7-10) and Guides (10-14) are affected.

@NoSquirrels thanks - wonder if it has filtered down yet will now also give Brownies a wide berth.

@Spanglylycra here is the link to the 5 live programme. I'm on about 1hr 40 mins in.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000g3s

One if the leaders they expelled (Helen/Agnes) is a Rainbow leader. It applies to all sections, and the safeguarding issues are different for each but equally affected. I’m so cross!

Girl Guides about to be discussed on Good Morning Britain shortly!

Is that Piers Morgan? I can't see him being on the side of PC.

Just caught the last few minutes of Good Morning Britain. Holy f**k, I think Piers Morgan might be a MNetter. He was, as far as I could see, very much on the side of the lady who was there representing parents with daughters at GG. Susie Green kept trotting out that there wasn't a problem, as transgirls are girls. The mum managed to get in that girls don't have penises. Pip Bunce was mentioned by Piers, he summed the absurd situation up very well. Susie Green just shrugged and said what's that got to do with GG? Again Piers said it was about safeguarding and informed consent, "I'd like to know." The trouble is, whenever potential predatory "men" are mentioned in the context of GG, people like Susie Green just point to stats of how many men are convicted of rape or sexual assault when identifying. That makes me so mad. So what, my threshold of tolerance is only breached if I'm sexually assaulted by a man. What about if I have a million other reasons why I don't want a man in my single sex space. But of course it's top trumps, and my trump is right at the bottom as I'm female. (Apologies but my pc won't do paragraphs today!)

Would green want her child sleeping next to intact boys? I suspect not.

If she was asked Fekko she'd have to say "yes", as according to her trans girls are girls, so what's the problem for her presumably? The irony is of course that neither she nor her daughter would have the luxury of choice, they wouldn't know and won't be asked. How many times are people going to have to say they're not anti trans. They're anti one group trying to assert their feelings and "rights" over another. Especially when that group, women, have historically had to fight tooth and nail for every right connected to their biological sex, in a patriarchal society.

I don't know if it helped but I wrote to my MP last week, focussing on changes to British Gymnastics and Girl Guide policies, not least because I know that she really does care about sport for young people, and will speak her own mind. I assume others wil have done the same. I dont know if it made a difference but hey: twitter.com/KateHoeyMP/status/1044358566247911424?s=19 With the prospect of a very keenly fought general election, ordinary letters from ordinary women constituents, bringing an inssue to an insecure MPs attention, could have a real impact. We are many, they are few. And in elections that is what matters.

But greens kid can't get pregnant.

Piers Morgan has a long career first as an editor of the Daily Mirror. He can spot a good story like an bloodhound and knows how to present it. But is prone to self aggrandisement and is perhaps the British mainstream journalist that is closest to Trump.